Should we have to work twice as hard as white folk for the same results?
.
"Have you forgotten that once we were brought here, we were robbed of our names, robbed of our language, we lost our religion our culture our God and many of us by the way we act we even lost our mind"
These truthful and powerful words spoken by the late great Dr. Khalid Abdul Muhammad and used on the P.E. track “Night of the living basehead” came to mind when I sat down to write this.
It has become clear to me that some Negroes have given up, they have lost focused and are now participating in the intellectual destruction of Black unity. Recently Scott of the Negro-Con group Conservative brotherhood hood wrote on his Blog;
“We learned it from out fathers and mothers, works twice as hard because racism exist, keep your nose clean because the criminal justice system can't get justice for the black man, suck it up when you work harder and get less than your white co-workers, life is hard but you have everything you need to succeed inside you.”
What we have here is a Negro-Con admitting to the existence of racism in America, the problems it pose and a somewhat clear understanding of how it adversely affect Black men and women. His understanding of racism in America is negated by two things; His unwillingness to see the need to continue fighting against racism and his inability to see how reactions from racism contribute to the problems plaguing the Black community and Black family.
Negro-Cons are quick to say racism exists but they are as quick to say Black problems and issues are caused by us. Negro-Cons believe that Black men and women having to work twice as hard as white folk is ok, and a reality we have to live with and this phenomena should not be challenged. The ignorance involved in this belief is immeasurable. They expect us to sit back while white folk are structurally empowered to get ahead and our lack of structural support and in fact structural disempowerment means we should be ok with working twice as hard as others have to, while simultaneously measuring our success rate with the same means white success is measured. Does that make sense? How can anyone admit to historical and present day white structural empowerment and racism honestly compare our condition to theirs using the same measuring stick?
The worst part about the Negro-Con that admits that racism exists and that white folks are structurally empowered is they do not see the correlation between black poverty, crime and system dependency and the phenomena of white structural empowerment and racism. Why would anyone believe that the state of Black folks in America is due to some lack of personal responsibility and not a reaction from being disempowered structurally and reactions to white racism and white supremacy. This understanding is elementary; as brother Noah has stated, the see-saw effects of capitalism and white racism dictates that white rise is rooted in the fall and beating down of others.
We have millions of examples of the lack of personal responsibility demonstrated by white folks so any belief that black problems are rooted in the lack of personal responsibility would have to mean white success is rooted in their great sense of personal responsibility and this is not the case. The argument about the lack of Black personal responsibility is baseless and racist and ignores the fact that our present day condition is the result of our past experience up to this day in America and that structural empowerment for whites creates an illusion of personal responsibility by whites.
If one can admit to white structural empowerment and white racism in this day, then how can they ignore or miss the manifestation of its effects and reactions expressed in the life of those who are victims of it.
posted by Faheem @ 10/20/2004 01:18:00 PM
39 comments
39 Comments:
Yes…such is an enigma to say the least. They acknowledge that racism exist, but are yet to quantify its impact upon black people in order to differentiate the effect from personal irresponsibility. The truth is that everyone and every ethnicity or race has a certain degree of irresponsibility and problems that are of their own making. However, whites and NegroCons are propagating the belief that blacks have more problems born from irresponsibility than other groups and that is what is perpetuating our lagging conditions. But they fail to mention just why it is that blacks are so self destructive relative to other groups. Is it genetics or is it simply a symptom and reaction to white supremacy upon them?
The truth of life is that it is a competition. The nature of competition is to win and to get the status and rewards from victory. Thus, working harder will not close the gap because when we work harder, whites work harder to try and keep supremacy of condition over blacks. Remember, blacks have been the traditional bottom of the barrel and if whites are not doing better than blacks, us being inferior and all, then their stature is deflated along with their egos that make them think they are superior over us. This is where racism comes in to their advantage, to help keep us down.
Think of it like sprint competition, where blacks have to start further back than whites. Now, assuming that whites want victory, they are going to expell as much energy as possible to secure it, if the fill threatened by blacks. Thus, you have whites expending equal energy as blacks, which means that the gap from the start can never be made up unless blacks are actually SUPERIOR. If blacks are expelling as much energy as possible and in turn whites do the same in order to maintain their lead, only the reality of black superiority will allow blacks to pull even or ahead or even gain ground for that matter.
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I doubt the accuracy of these stats.
Please examine this:
http://www.jsonline.com/homes/buy/jan04/203740.asp
And this:
http://www.sptimes.com/News/072501/Census/Face_of_home_ownershi.shtml
Does NOT mean that the work is done. Does not mean that parity has been achieved.
But it does mean that people are working towards those ends, and progress is being made.
Peg K
My Friend Faheem:
The opposite of a "Negro-Con" is a what??
Do you ever sit back and figure that since the "Negro-Con" is often repudiated by the Black community and thus has no elected power within our community that this "Negro-Con" is not the force that is leading the community astray?
Somehow though the "Anti-Negro-Con" manages to escape all blame for their leadership. In every major Black population center there is a "Anti-Negro-Con" who is maybe the mayor, city council president, school board president, state senator or US representative. Yet despite this fact they escape inspection from the masses as the finger of blame gets pointed to "da man" and the "Negro-Con". Do you feel coonned at all?
In my view the one thing that is going to force the Black community to change is when some other melinated group (Indians, Caribbeans, Asians) comes to this country and does everything that these "Anti-Negro-Cons" say is not possible because of the legacy of racism in this country. Conscious Black people will take a step back and realize that they have been bamboozled for too long and begin to abandon the condition of "Conditioned Hopelessness" that has plagued our community for too long. It is the lack of INTERNAL action and the construction of a LOCAL ECONOMY that is our biggest problem and not RACISM.
[quote]Negro-Cons are quick to say racism exists but they are as quick to say Black problems and issues are caused by us. Negro-Cons believe that Black men and women having to work twice as hard as white folk is ok, and a reality we have to live with and this phenomena should not be challenged. The ignorance involved in this belief is immeasurable. They expect us to sit back while white folk are structurally empowered to get ahead and our lack of structural support and in fact structural disempowerment means we should be ok with working twice as hard as others have to, while simultaneously measuring our success rate with the same means white success is measured. Does that make sense? How can anyone admit to historical and present day white structural empowerment and racism honestly compare our condition to theirs using the same measuring stick?
[/quote]
Your willingness to mischaraterize people has always amused me Faheem.
If you can find one Black person living in America who does not know that people are aware of their race and that they apply their own biases to this awareness please find one for me.
The issue is not about the ABSENCE of racism. The issues is having a solid internal plan to deal with the realities that we face.
The struggle to end all racism, everywhere will be about as effective as having a traffic cop on the African tundra trying to enforce a law that lions are no longer allowed to eat zebras and caraboo.
The fact of the matter is that non-melinated races owe their survival to preventing massive fusion of genetic coding with melinated people (better known as mating). I would like for you to tell me the day that these people are going to yeild to a law of universal fairness that you aspire for that will put YOUR fairness above THEIR will to perpetuate their race.
IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.
How about achieving a playing field in which the most aggregious acts of racism has consequences and then having YOUR PEOPLE put forth a plan of action to build the society that they want among themselves?
In this country we don't have to worry about foreign invaders, sewage systems and where our next meal will be coming from. We are operating from a platform that is stable enough to create certain processes for living within and then migrating to a new land if needed AND EXECUTING THESE SAME PROCESSES AGAIN.
Now please tell me where this passage falls in line with the stereotypified "Negro-Con" (and I reject that label) that you have painted.
I think you are mischaracterizing why we Anti-NegroCons are always lamenting about the existence of racism. The primary reason that we talk about white racism is not because we think that white folks are going to read it and change their ways. We all know that most racist white folks can’t even see their own racism, let alone feel a need for change. Furthermore, their changing would go against the grain of why they were so racist in the first place…which is to lift their selves up by putting others down. Thus, the anti-Negro-Con has clearly managed expectations about the elimination of white racism…thank you. We do not need you to tell us this.
The reason that we anti-Negro-cons talk about racism is only to EXPLAIN the current reality. It’s simply a major factor in the chain reaction of cause and effect temporally which accrues to the present. Thus, what it simply represents is called the TRUTH. The major gaps between blacks and whites are the product of white racism. To talk about our problems absence the history and presence of white racism defaults the cause of the problem to blacks themselves or black inferiority. Blacks need to continue to realize that the present is the creation of the past and we need not internalize our position and sulk in a sense of racial inferiority which manifest in the disrespect and lack of confidence of other black life besides our own. Will some people see this history as a crutch….sure? Will some people see this history as a motivating and driving force to unify and struggle because of this…..sure? I am one of the latter and so is my fellow senior fellow at the black introspection think tank, Brother Faheem. Regardless, of the methodology of solution, one has to always lead with the TRUTH in regards to the cause.
I am not totally anti-Negro-Con. I am only against the anti-negro-cons who believe in assimilation away from blackness and black unity. Those folks who are simply the mouth piece of white conservatives who use them as proxy to speak out against the black masses, because they don’t want to be seen as racist.
In regards to your theory or colored folks coming over here and following the NegroCon script to success over the African Americans that would not be apples to apples comparison. I can take a group of elite African Americans and plant them in any nation, and watch them do better than the average population in their new country. The black Americans living in South Africa have a much higher standard of living than the Native South Africans. This is true to such a degree that many black South Africans resent them and say they are taking away opportunities. However, if you would take all of black American and put those in SA, their standard of living would fall into norm, with the natives. The point being that you cannot compare an elite subset with the totality of the whole of another population group.
I want everyone to take note of Renaldo’s words and attitude and refer back to a question I asked back on Sept 8, 2004 on this forum. I asked all that read my words “Is the structural racist system in America “Fait Accompli”. Some may have not understood what I was asking when I first wrote it but now Renaldo presence here has given that question more relevance. Here is what Renaldo wrote;
“The struggle to end all racism, everywhere will be about as effective as having a traffic cop on the African tundra trying to enforce a law that lions are no longer allowed to eat zebras and caraboo.”
It is defeatist attitudes and beliefs like this that weakens our people. Renaldo and other Negro-Cons accept as most men and women do that white racism is a reality but they have went a step further in saying that struggling against it and seeking its destruction is futile, a waste of time and that they would rather us all accept the principles of white supremacy and work twice as hard to keep our head above water and work twice as hard on our personal responsibilities to keep our head above the water. That is a defeatist attitude if I have ever seen one.
Also take note that he did not deny any of what I said he tried to talk around it or otherwise obfuscate and change the subject.
You can reject being called a Negro-Con Renaldo but this word more than any describes you and the majority of those Negro men and women that capitulate to the whims of white intellectual racism.
Peg K, I think the reason people react negatively to you here is because this is percieved as a black space. Could you imagine, me as a black person, going into a Hispanic space, and insisting that they should all never speak any language other than english?
Even if I think that would be best for that(I don't in real life), they might react negatively, because it's not my place to tell their group what they should do, or what is best for them.
That's why often whites, even well meaning ones, may meet some resistance in black spaces. At least that's my theory.
“The opposite of a "Negro-Con" is a what??”
“Do you ever sit back and figure that since the "Negro-Con" is often repudiated by the Black community and thus has no elected power within our community that this "Negro-Con" is not the force that is leading the community astray?”
Renaldo,
You are reading the words of someone that is the opposite of a Negro-Con. The opposite of a Negro-Con would be a Progressive Black man or woman that work toward the uplift of African people where ever we are and have not nor will he or she ever bow down to white supremacy and the structural racist system in America.
The anti-Negro-Con that is a politician does not escape blame, when he or she is found to be in error, he or she will be chastised; however this is another intellectually lazy attempt by you to obfuscate. Negro-Cons are not spoken about on this Blog simply to blame them for one thing or another; they are spoken about because they have allowed themselves to become the mouth piece for white rule and simply parrot the arguments framed in white think tanks. Not one Negro-Con have an original thought, all of their stances are derived from their white counterpart in their various think tanks. Furthermore Negro-Cons try to frame Black issues around the political system i.e. Liberal versus Conservative. This is just more divisive garbage espoused by Negro-Cons when they know as I do that our problems are not rooted in a ten percent philosophical difference between Democrats and Republicans. Furthermore those Anti-Negro-Con politicians are working on behalf of our people and do not parrot intellectual racist ideology conjured up by the Heritage foundation, the Hoover institute and other white think tanks.
Malcolm X: "The Ballot or the Bullet"
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/malcolmxballot.htm
"The social philosophy of black nationalism only means that we have to get together and remove the evils, the vices, alcoholism, drug addiction, and other evils that are destroying the moral fiber of our community. We our selves have to lift the level of our community, the standard of our community to a higher level, make our own society beautiful so that we will be satisfied in our own social circles and won't be running around here trying to knock our way into a social circle where we're not wanted. So I say, in spreading a gospel such as black nationalism, it is not designed to make the black man re-evaluate the white man -- you know him already -- but to make the black man re-evaluate himself. "
Read the whole speech. If you believe in black nationalism as you say you do then I think you guys have lost your way. Malcolm was about actions buy us, voting (which you are against), fixing up our own communites, being responsible etc etc.
We know how we got here, the question is how do we get to a better place. And that is what the Conservative brotherhood is about. Lashaw focuses on religion, I focus on education and economics. But at the end of the day, we can only save ourselves others can't. And since we are twice as far behind yes we have to work 4 times as hard to catch up. And if you aren't willing to do that (which you say you are not) then get used to second class citizenship. Well Homey don't play that.
Well, certainly those quotes are indeed the verbiage of Malcolm …no doubt. However, just like the quote of MLK JR’s, I have a dream speech; it is taken out of the totality of the man. Malcolm also talked about many of the things that we talk about on this forum. He did not give white racism a free pass, in regards to explaining the condition of black people in America. Thus, you suggestion that we are off base Black Nationalist is erroneous.
Nowhere have you pointed out where any of us have said that there is nothing that black people should not strive to better ourselves. I think that is implicitly understood that all groups of people need to strive for self betterment and that all groups of people are to a degree their own worst enemy. What we disagree with is the notion that black people are our own worse enemy, as a consequence only of internal factors, more so than any other groups of people.
Indeed, contradicting to your theory I have presented many things that black people need to do, many of which you simply choose to ignore or disagree with. I touched upon black women and marriage. I touched upon credit and keeping good credit. And I most recently commented on additions to TV. So you are a complete liar to characterize this blog as not focusing on blacks and what we have to do to better ourselves.
I almost busted a gut laughing when you characterized the Conservative Brother hood. To say that Lawshawn is the religious wing of the brotherhood makes me want to puck….and to say that you are the economic wing, when you have not even demonstrated cursory understanding of Keynesian or Classical economic theory triggers my regurgitation reflexes as well.
A Scott, I guess you skipped right over this part of his speech that literally destroys your whole position and participation in politics.
"I'm not a politician, not even a student of politics; in fact, I'm not a student of much of anything. I'm not a Democrat, I'm not a Republican, and I don't even consider myself an American. If you and I were Americans, there'd be no problem"
Malcolm never voted a day in his life, voting was not allowed in the NOI and its members were told not to when Elijah Muhammad was in leadership. While we embrace all that Malcolm said in your post and know it does not negate anything we have written on this Blog, your position is in direct contradiction with what Malcolm stood for.
You like Apples Scott.
You touched on something that I have questioned also, Nmaginate. That is the question conscerning scotts blackness. He has never said he was black and he has never said he was not...but he implies all the time that he is black. whites often try to gain credibility in their preaching to blacks by trying to pretend to be blacks. They think that we will simply dismiss them as racist if they reveal that they are white...so they try to be slick. What they fail to realize that we are not anti "white" we are anti the "ideology" of most whites, because it is harmful to our interest as a people. Thus, whether you are white or blacks...you come talking that BS you are going to get rejected and disrespected.
Who is this clown Nmaginate? Clearly part of the "Permanent Opposition, A Rebel Without A Pause And No Clear Cause"
[quote]
PEG K...
Do you ever stop to think that no self-respecting Black person is going to by you're Awfully WHITE underlying assumptions?[/quote]
Do you have any other strategy besides telling people how BLACK you are and how WHITE I think?
I will ask you what I have always asked Noah - let's take the "checking account statement" challenge where you prove to me that your acutal actions with regard to your economic decisions in this country distinguish you as your rhetoric would have us to believe. I would gather that you purchase and support the very same corporation (cable co, gas co, etc) that you rally against at each opportunity. Let's see how many black businesses you actually spend money with. I rest easily at night with the knowedge that I am doing my part.
Appearently you and Noah are brothers in the same spirit. On the one hand to complain about the material and economic differences between White and Black and then you turn around and damn the entire system of capitalism. Please tell me which one is it?
The thing that distinguishes me from you is not that I lack one ounce of destire to help the Black community than you do. It is the fact that I am willing to put the thoughts and associations that we operate under to mroe scrutiny and dare to measure the EFFECTIVENESS of such policies.
You clearly work on the PROXIMITY theory where only those people who think as you already think can be correct. Your ultimate goal is not solutions nor UNITY it is POWER AND CONTROL over one's thoughts.
Nmaginate asks: Astray by whose standards? Astray from what?
Your inability to have any standards of your own at less say evaluating the impact of the music that our young people listen to as it relates to their ability to develop a balanced consciousness and perhaps lead them toward success in this very system that they live in (not a theoretical world) makes you GET DEFENSIVE when someone dares to question if "calling Black women bitches and thinking that you are the man for screwing a large number of them because you have spinner rims" is harmful to our young people and THAT IT VIOLATES OUR OWN BLACK STANDARDS. Instead you attempt to defend the indefinsible. Once this offending messenger has been repudiated all you have is the same bad behavior and no one daring to say anything about it lest they hear your rath.
Your words don't intimidate me my fried.
I don't strive to live up to your standards of Blackness because you have no integrity in your tools to measure such.
I know that I live at home with my two Black children and my Black wife and that MY character is imprinted upon them everyday. When they are old enough to be on their own these will be two black kids who have been shaped by me. This is the minimum that God has asked me to do.
Now if you say this is no big deal - this is what you are supposed to do - then how about turning your venom to the hundreds of thousands of young brothers who are falling below this minimum standards instead of having your guns blazing on your ego battle against me?
I knew that your co-conspirator theory would make its unheralded debut to this blog eventually. You were just salivating at the opportunity to present it, were you not Renaldo? Your eagerness was to such a degree that it was presented in an argument totally out of context of what was being talked about. But that does not matter. It does not matter that you are missing to point and context of what is being said. What is important to you is to get your point stated, regardless of the irrelevance to the conversations. Ahhhhh….I miss those days of discoursing with you Renaldo and your proclivity to digress off point, to obfuscate and to mischaracterize a person position simply so that you can come up with a repudiation or a counter point.
The truth is, my brother, is that you do not know what we do in our lives that does not manifest as words over the internet and we know nothing about you and what you do either. Thus, why even go to the non provable and that which cannot be substantiated? You could say that you are President Bush…who the hell knows. The only thing that’s real and can be measured here is logic and reasoning.
I guess Renaldo has an insight into our spending habits now. I did not know there was a Black gas company or Black cable company there sure are none out here on the left coast. Lets, just say you spend on average fifty to one hundred dollars more than all of us a month in Black businesses, what the hell does that have to do with yout acceptance of white supremacy and your capitulation to America's structural racist system. What was with mentioned the raising of your children, no one has challenged you as a father although we hope your children do not accept the political ideology you have. I am glad you have a Black wife, most Negro-Cons do not and since you are going to measure our philosphical posiitons by our spending money in Black businesses what do you have to say about those Negro-Cons that marry white men and women, surely they have sold completly the hell out in your eyes.
This blog format does not lend itself to a full discussion and a complete debunking of many of the assertions that you all make.
In reverse order for my friend Faheem
[quote]
Lets, just say you spend on average fifty to one hundred dollars more than all of us a month in Black businesses, what the hell does that have to do with yout acceptance of white supremacy and your capitulation to America's structural racist system.[/quote]
My point was NOT about finding a Black gas company, Faheem. My point is that many of your Pseudo-Intellectual Revolutionary Black folks love to talk about the exploitative, capitalistic, oppressive policies tht this government operates on yet you are also first in line at BP Amoco to put the gasoline that is the fruit of this policy into your own car in order to MAINTAIN YOUR CURRENT STANDARD OF LIVING in America.
Yes you are correct Noah the old "Capitalist Co-Conspirator" theory rises again. You know why - because it accurately describes the behavior of you and others.
You are a FACELESS AMERICAN CONSUMER. How about accepting this and putting for a plan to change?
If this current economic system was formed by White Supremacy (and clearly it was) then your willful participation in it WITHOUT ANY PLANS TO DISENGAGE IN IT (please if you are going to quote me use both parts of my statement) is tantimount to YOU being a CO-CONSPIRATOR in this system that you condemn.
You see now Noah - this is when I break out my time line:
Blacks were brought over into this current capitalistic system under duress. There was no choice in the matter so our being a cog in the wheel of American capitalism can be excused.
Once we got freedom we had 100 years of Jim Crow. Again we did not have 100% of SELF DETERMINATION where if we wanted to disengage from this system we could not form the economic base to migrate out (as Marcus Garvey attempted to do prior to him being imprisoned by J. Edgar Hoover).
Now my friends, we are equal partners as American consumers. Though this system may not have worked for you in the area of power and wealth creation I see no movement to seperate from this same system which has it's footings within White Supremacy.
As a matter of fact you even have people like the good brother Noah complaining that in fact Black people are not allowed to operate fully in this economic system and the recent report is used as proof.
It appears to me that there is a major disconnect at the core going on here. Either you fully accept the system that you are in and play the game (game respects game) or you depart from this system - setting up a strategy where you disconnect while you are still here and then you relocate to another land.
Instead we see African-Americans as one of the biggest net consumers in America.
Step back and tell me where I am wrong.
Then tell me what magical event that will occur in the future is going to change this?
Then my friend Faheem posted:
[quote]“The struggle to end all racism, everywhere will be about as effective as having a traffic cop on the African tundra trying to enforce a law that lions are no longer allowed to eat zebras and caraboo.”
It is defeatist attitudes and beliefs like this that weakens our people. Renaldo and other Negro-Cons accept as most men and women do that white racism is a reality but they have went a step further in saying that struggling against it and seeking its destruction is futile, a waste of time and that they would rather us all accept the principles of white supremacy and work twice as hard to keep our head above water and work twice as hard on our personal responsibilities to keep our head above the water. That is a defeatist attitude if I have ever seen one.
Also take note that he did not deny any of what I said he tried to talk around it or otherwise obfuscate and change the subject.
[/quote]
Defeatest attitude he says.
Accept white supremacy he says.
I will kill two birds with one stone on that one. Responding to Faheem and using the city of Detroit as an example.
Recall earlier this year that there was a report that the "tipping point" for formerly all White communities was 42%. This means when the non-white population meets or exceeds this point, the white folks begin to move.
Now notice that they did not say white Republicans or Skinheads they said White folks.
Now many Black Progressives see this as a sign that American is just as racist as ever and will try to find some way of putting a stop to this. In reality they are addicted to the economic resources that derived from this community, knowing that if and when they depart the town will be left, as Detroit is today, to fend for itself without a strong tax base to PAY FOR THE STANDARD OF LIVING WHICH THESE BLACK PROGRESSVIES SEE AS THEIR RIGHT AS AMERICANS. (Notice that this standard of living is not a FUNCTION of the economic system that is able to produce this standard - it is a RIGHT afforded to these people as citizens).
After the transfer of political power has taken place not a single piece of real estate has fallen back into the ocean. All of the buildings remain intact, the same river front property and relatively the same number of people who were there before remain. The thing that has left is the economic system that used to produce wealth.
The PROGRESSIVES at "Black Commentator.COM" call this the "Flight of Capital from the Inner City".
What is shows me is that those who express resentment and distain toward this same economic system are really praying to God that they never have to fend for themselves, having to develop a FUNCTIONAL economic system that actually provides for the standard which they desire.
The solution for the Progressive in this case is to shift toward policies that aggregate tax collection at the federal government so that no person can depart to a different taxation district and excape the long arm of the taxman. In the past if they didn't like the new policies they could just pick up and leave to a place that was more in their favor. Now there is no escapiing short of leaving the counrty.
Though the PROGRESSIVE always talks about the need to develop a LOCAL ECONOMIC (and this truly is the solution) he will always choose to take that "hit of that crack pipe" and take the income redistrubition route of receiving government funds injected into his community.
White liberals such as John Kerry and Ted Kennedy (the senator who has never met a Black man who HE didn't believe needed a fish lest he starve to death) are there to "feel your pain" and throw some resources your way to have you eat for yet another day. Just don't start talking that "independence/self determination\ stuff" and you won't have a problem from them. Attempt to impose an equal footing with them and demand "quid pro quo" for your vote and boy will the true colors come out.
So back again to the main point of my post. The fact of the matter Faheem BY DEFINITION the White race is a race of people without much pigmentation to their skin. If they ever lose this or let other people politically dominate them then they by definition will cease to exist as a race. THEY WILL NEVER SUBORDINATE THEMSELVES TO YOUR WILL WHERE EVERYONE IS ON EQUAL FOOTING. This does not play to their advantage as a race.
It appears to me that this is what the "Black Progressive" is seeking yet they ignore the phenomenon of the "Tipping Point" and other evidence. Our public schools are more segregated than ever. Now people have the free will to live where they want to. Guess what - More often then not they are choosing to live with their OWN DAMNED KIND.
I propose that we demand a level playing field in the broadest sense (You cannot name one Civil Right that can truly becalled a "civil right" that I am opposed t o - Affirmative Action is not a civil right).
The part where African-Americans are failing is the second portion of the equation that complements what is above - building your own independent economic base to call your own shots.
So again Faheem - you've got me wrong if you think I am accepting a stacked deck. I am rejecting the trivial pursuit where our agenda is externally lead. Our locus of control currently resides outside of our community which is why so many folks are begging for a Kerry victory.
Yet in Atlanta along Buford Highway were the Asians have developed their own economy I don't see very many national election signs. It appears they win no matter who is in office.
There is nothing "defeatist" about my view. It is a REALISTIC VIEW my friend.
The failure of the Black Progressive is the failure to TELL THE BLACK MASSES WHAT WE NEED TO DO TO ASSIST IN OUR OWN SALVATION. Without showing the people how their own sacrifice today will lead to a brighter future and showing them the part they play in the big picture (all are needed) you will have what you have today - discontentment. The Progressive swears that they will one day have nationalism trump racism and thus they will be waiting for a long time. (Nationalism = as a citizen I am guaranteed a certain equal provision of resources)
Good stuff, Renaldo.
Peg K
Renaldo...
Your ignorance assumes far too much and does not describe Faheem, Noah, Nmaginate or Black Introspection. To suggest or even allow it to enter that little head of yours that we do not offer advice beneficial to Black men and women is ridiculous. You think the absence of offering some grand solution on this blog means we do not have one. I have written several times that if we are to solve Black problems we have to get to the root cause of them. This mean before I offer a solution to be intellectually molested by Negro-Cons like you we must first agree on the cause of the problem.
If we are going to address the Black drop out rate we have to address the irrelevance of the public school curriculum to Black children and Black life. Afri-Centric schools have proven productive and beneficial but Negro-Cons are afraid to support them because they fear what their white cohort will say. Negro-Cons are afraid of supporting Africa Town because they believe it discriminates against other people. Negro-Cons spend their days looking for something wrong in Black life to expose as proof of our inferiority and a means of gaining white acceptance. Take a look around the blog sphere and see how many Negro-Cons are out there kissing the back side of white folk, it is sickening.
You have the wrong Black man if you think I am upset when white folk move the hell away from us, I say move as far away from us as you can, but I do not expect my property to reduce in value because white folk moved away or move close to. You keep offering this scenario’s that we all support and I guess your ignorance of that lies in you not reading all that we say.
I am a student of Austrian economics http://www.mises.org/ is
place to start learning about it yourself.
"because... listen to this... "I" have never endorsed not voting."
http://blackintrospection.blogspot.com/2004_08_29_blackintrospection_archive.html
"The exercising of that strategy my very well manifest as the right to vote for the candidate of your choice, or not to vote at all."
"by invoking the choice of vote stoppage,"
Renaldo..This B.S. Co-Capitalist Conspiracy theory of yours exemplifies the manner in which you and other Negro-Cons obfuscate and seek to redirect blame for the actions of others on those who for the need and no other reason than the need to survive use the fruits of capitalism.
If we were to take your position and apply it across the board this would mean those who wear clothing, use sports equipment, wear shoes made in sweat shops around the globe are also guilty by proxy of course, of supporting sweat shops. How about that report some years ago that the Keebler Company would not allow its employees to use the restroom for eight hours that led to bladder problems for many of them and other problems, I guess if I eight one Keebler cookie or cracker I am responsible for that. Do I even need to mention the big monster Wal-Mart, shopping their means I agree with their practices as the world largest employer.
Take your gas analogy, I am a firm supporter in finding another source of energy to fuel cars, however there are hundreds of lobbyist buying off politicians that can make it possible for an alternative fuel source to be actively sought, thus if I am to survive and get out here and help our people I will use what is available to me to do that. So yea, I use the fruits of capitalism to the point that I must use them to survive and help in the uplift of Black men and women in America and in the Diaspora. There is no contradiction in what I do; my use of the fruits of capitalism in America is true to the extent that the fruits of a non-capitalist system being unavailable to me. Are you going to accuse me of breathing the same air as the racist I condemn next? Or will you accuse me of living on the same planet as those who I see as the enemy of Black rise. Maybe I should get me a space ship and go to another planet, but then you would accuse me of using the enemies’ tools to get away from the enemy. Your co-conspirator capitalist theory is garbage and deserves to be in the waste basket with the rest of the garbage espoused by you Negro-Cons. Maybe we all should take our children out of school if we think smoking is horrible and kills thousands of people, after all that big money from the tobacco companies lawsuits are being used to educate our children. I will use the fruits of the capitalist labor to destroy him and I have no shame in doing it.
[quote]Afri-Centric schools have proven productive and beneficial but Negro-Cons are afraid to support them because they fear what their white cohort will say.[/quote]
Interesting that you talk about over-generalizations. I have visited every KIPP Academy in Atlanta. These are Charter Schools located deep in the ghetto or the barrio who's job is to educate kids that have fallen through the gap of public schools. They extend the school day from 7:30pm until 6pm. They demand of the students, they demand of the parents. If a student comes late he must appologize in front of the entire class for disprespecting the policies that these others took the extra effort to abide by.
Some of the very things that you talk about that are lost because of our stolen culture and in many cases, because there is no father at home, ARE INSTILLED BY THESE SCHOOLS.
Now you talk about the "Black-Neo-Con" opposition to these schools? Please go to Jesse Jackson's web site and read about HIS recent opposition to such schools because they threaten the public schools. Jesse is speaking from the perspective of the TEACHERS UNION and not from the perspective of the parents and the best interests of the students.
You have to understand that this is what I am talking about having a constant pursuit of some theorized RIGHT despite having evidence to the contrary. How many additional generations of Black kids will be harmed before change is made by the community rather than waiting for government reform?
I SUPPORT SCHOOL CHOICE. I support an Afro-Centric school if it is true to it's self and does not just teach psychobable (Noah should know what this is because I have dialogued with him about this). If you are going to teach this person to be of historical African consciousness then it will be required that you detatch from this current environment. Capitalism was not present back then so stop faking the funk in believing that a person trained as such will compete as a consumer in this capitalistic country.
[quote]
Negro-Cons are afraid of supporting Africa Town because they believe it discriminates against other people.[/quote]
You know Faheem - the more that I listen to some Black Progressives the more that I understand how mentally dependent they actually are.
I believe that I have layed out my case clearly in the post attached to this story. I FULLY SUPPORT THE CONCEPT OF AFRICATOWN. I do not support the use of government funds in a racially discriminatory manner.
MY SOULUTION - OPEN A BANK TO FUND THIS EFFORT. The money that was to be collected via taxes in Detroit and then invested into this venture need to be directed toward this private financial institution and thus not be subject to anti-discrimination standards that the Black Civil Rights Movement stood for.
I again direct you to Buford Highway in Metro Atlanta. The Asian and Hispanic community began charging a 1% local option sales tax on the stores within this shopping district. These funds will be used to build their own damned trolley system that shuttles shoppers up and down this long strip ALL WITHOUT USING GOVERNMENT FUNDING.
It is strategically flaws on the one hand to be dependent on government funds in so many other municipalities and then when you get in control of a city such as Detroit you do the very same thing that you condemned White folks for doing.
Renaldo, why are you talking about Jessie Jackson as if Black Introspection is his website. If Jessie Jackson site says what you say it says, then it is not in agreement with Black intrspection. I am aware of the works of KIPP and I fully support KIPP and if Jessie does not, we both have a disagreement with him Furthermore while Jessie and I agree on many things we disagree on a few things but we both agree that we should work on behalf of our people and not be found accepting things as is as you suggested earlier about fighting racism being an excercise in futility.
[quote]Renaldo..This B.S. Co-Capitalist Conspiracy theory of yours exemplifies the manner in which you and other Negro-Cons obfuscate and seek to redirect blame for the actions of others on those who for the need and no other reason than the need to survive use the fruits of capitalism.[/quote]
My friend Faheem - the "Consumer Capitalist Co-Conspiracy" theory has survived the challenge of many a Black Progressive Pseudo Intellectual. I have been to college campuses sitting in on student meetings (though I am in my 30's), I have been on many a chat board, I have ran it buy many a liberal Black friend.
I listen to all of the angles that you all attempt to refute my claim and thus far I have not had a single person WHO IS BOUND BY THE TRUTH to themselves to refute my claim.
The bottom line is - it is one thing to live within a society, knowing that you can't just up and leave because on the one hand you had no say in your arrival here and secondly you are discontent within.
It is another thing, however, to strive to fully indulge into all of the excesses that are available in this very system.
Black folks have 22's on their car, big screen televisions, a pair of brand new leather sneakers for each day of the week. You can't tell me that we are not fully indulging in this system as opposed to trying to figure a way to remove ourselves from such dependency on this system.
The use of gas from a corporation is not evidence of "consumer co-conspiracy" THE CONTINUED USE OF THIS PRODUCT OF THIS NATION'S FOREIGN POLICY WITHOUT ANY ATTEMPT TO PROGRESSIVELY REMOVE YOURSELF FROM THIS ADDICTION IS.
You do not wish to reduce your standard of living - riding a bike to work because it takes too long, not eating fruits and veggies that are TRUCKED in from Cali in the wintertime to your east coast city, etc. It is this unwillingness to degrade your standard of living that snags you into this "Consumer Capitalist Co-Conspiracy".
Cleary as you go to other countries (Jamaica where my in-laws live) you see that their standard is very much less than ours. And I am not talking about a beachside resort. I am talking about Kingston - where the tourists don't go.
The evidence of this truth is clear if you are willing to accept the truth.
As long as you attempt to maintain this high standard of living that America assures, the more costly the change of standard in departing this country for a less developed one is.
[quote]accepting things as is as you suggested earlier about fighting racism being an excercise in futility.[/quote]
Had to get that jab in didn't you?
Please show me where I said this?
If you'll note I said it is worthy to fight for as much of a level playing field as much as you can expected, knowing that you are never going to get certain people to put themselves under your majority control when it is not to their advantage to do so.
I stated that once you get this field as level as it is ever going to get IT IS WHAT YOU DO FROM AN INTERNAL PERSPECTIVE WITH REGARDS TO CONSTRUCTING SOMETHING THAT WORKS IN YOUR BEST INTERESTS that come into play. The fact that you are living inside of "their container" means that you will have to respect "their" laws - which is what the orignal Africatown proposal violated.
I'll ask you again - What asside from the constant battle for "civil rights" does the current Progressive Leadership ask of the Black masses to do in direct support of their own salvation?
It appears that the fight against racism is the core of their efforts with the hopes that by relieving this racism the natural development that has been repressed will take place. Sorry to tell you that it is not going to happen unless a more "affirmative action" from with in is put forth.
Renaldo, you are smarter than that, I just intellectually destroyed your Capatilist Co-Conspiracy theory and now you come back talking about what other Black men are doing. I can assure you brother, I am not one who indulges in the materialistic behavior that is prevalent amongst our people. I believe as my brother Tavis Smiley says, I do not spend money I dont have, I do not buy things I don't need to impress people I dont like. Others may have failed at destroying your foolish theory but Faheem passed your Capatalist Co-Conspiracy theory. I stated boldly and clearly that I indulge in the fruits of capatilism to the extent that the fruits of a non-capatilist system is avaialble to me and I use the fruits of the evil capatilist to work towards his intellectual and physical destruction.
Renaldo kills me with the co-conspirator capitalistic theory. First, as I pointed out to him before, to co conspire means to participate in the planning there of. Now, as far as I know, none on this blog was born, nor their parents, to participate as a co planner of capitalism and Keynesian or Classical capitalistic economic theory. Thus, a more appropriate terminology would be that of co-participant in the game or an enabler of the game.
Secondly, one has to understand the distinction and difference between capitalism and other systems. There are many intersects or things in common in nearly all modern economic systems. Thus, those intersecting traits are practiced in Marxism, Communism, socialism or what have you. They are practiced across the board because they are universal traits rooted in survival. Thus, if one is to be a co-conspirator of capitalism, they must be guilty of doing those things that are unique to capitalism
Being a worker and consumer is universal. It is a necessity of life and survival. Thus, the fact that we work and consume while living in a capitalistic system does not make us guilty of being capitalist. Rather, it makes us guilty of trying to survive through the conduit of work and consumption. That is what people do in Cuba, China, Russia, England and all over the world. They work, consume and trade as part of life.
With capitalism being spread around the globe, how does one disengage? Freedom is measured buy the number of viable options that individuals have. Capitalism squeezes out all other viable options by attempting to promote their failure. Case In point its cold war policies with the former Soviet Union and what it currently does against Cuba, by trying to restrict trade and choke off the commerce and viability of the nation. Capitalism is like a cancer that seeks to spread and destroy health cells. Once it metastasizes there is not disengaging it.
My friend Faheem - the fact that I am able to sit in one part of the country and never having met you communicate my thoughts to you who is sitting in an entirely different part of the country is a feat that is enabled via the fruit of capitalistic investment by corporations.
Do you see this character - "@". This one bit of information just got transmitted through billions of dollars of fiber optics cables and network switches from no less than 3 companies, all of which are operating on capitalistic principles.
While you attempt to narrow my claims to one of "excess", I am stating my case from the position of ACCESS TO ITEMS OVER AND ABOVE WHAT WOULD BE AVAILABLE TO YOU, FOR A GIVEN PRICE EXCEPT FOR WHAT THIS SYSTEM CAN PROVIDE FOR YOU.
It is not about excessvie spending of money. The fact that you can purchase your Internet service for $24 per month (or what ever since you won't let me see your bank statement) instead of $200 per month is because there are companies competing with each other and getting more efficient as they push down the prices that they can offer their services to you.
There is no escaping the truth Faheem - you are a "faceless American Consumer Co-Conspirator" in this Capitalistic system.
Be that as it may Renaldo, You can call me a C.C.C. as Nmaginate has properly abbreviated it but truthfully if we are going to talk about my relationship with America's capitalist system it must be one of exploit-tee. I am paying a higher price than what most things are worth and definitely more than what it cost to produce them thus someone is exploiting my need for a thing for profit which of course is the bases of capitalism. So I would prefer you refer to me as a "Faceless exploited by capitalism Black man in America" because capitalism is an exploitive economic system, especially when you consider the inflated gas prices today. And this again defeats your silly assertion because our condemnation of capitalism is about its exploitive nature thus we are closer to the definition of a victim of capitalism than we are a co-conspirator in it.
You Like apples Conservo….
[quote]Now, of what relevance is this C.C.C. Theory to being against White Supremacy as expressed here? Whether Black want to be capitalists or benefit from capitalism or not has little or no bearing on whether or not to challenge the Power Relationships in White Supremacy.[/quote]
You two kill me in that you can't even accept what is undeniably true.
Capitalism creates a certain level of wealth above other systems by it's very nature.
It is you two who's constant refrain is about the horrors of capitalism.
Now Faheem brings in the angle of White Supremacy. The fact is that if the US's actions in Iraq specifically and if this country's disposition with respect to the Middle East in general is an example of White Supremacy against other peoples then clearly again - YOU as a consumer of this very fruit WHICH WOULD NOT BE AVAILABLE TO YOU at this given quantity and prices IS A FUNCTION OF THE PRESENCE OF THIS WHITE SUPREMACY that you speak of.
It is their "power relationship" to these middle eastern countries, knowing that oil is the life blood of the United States that if one of these regimes dared to cut off the flow of oil in an orchestrated manner they would suffer the consequences of the American military.
And once again there will be Noah and Faheem choosing between regular, midgrade or premium while others plot out their strategy on how to meet the demand that you two are a part of.
Again - your acceptance or rejection of these facts do not make a difference - after all it's just talk. Only your change in consumer behavior will change it.
Yep they are very blind to basic facts.
Check out this foolish exposition on the evil of capitalism they wrote.
http://blackintrospection.blogspot.com/2004/08/fallacy-of-capitalism.html
below was my reply:
http://blacksforbush.blogspot.com/2004/08/fisking-fallacy-of-capitalism-new.html
A communist country sent the first man into space. Facist Germany had developed such technology that it threatend to overtake the world and took a slew of allies to defeat it. Thus, Renaldo, your proposition is to have us believe that most of the modernity that we enjoy is due to Capitalism, but many of the things that we enjoy would have eventually manifested under other systems as well. It truth, one of the biggest drivers of invention is militarism. The computer evolved, not in a small part, due to the militaries need to have a super processor that could break the codes of enemies. The miliatry motive is major player in innovation. That is why old Germany and Russia were able to make lead in the invention of certain technologies. Thus, you are simply wrong Renaldo in your proposition. Being a worker or consumer in the capitaistic system does not make one a CCC...only when you employ workers for a profit does one become a capitalist. Other systems have industries that are state run and they do not seek private profiting.
NmagiNATE you are boring.
And I appologise for confusing Noah's or faheems postions with yours.
I will not make that mistake again.
I believe it was Noah who said not to vote, and you only agreed with him. So in your lawerly manner you have made you point of evidence.
Are you happy now.
Or shall you continue to jack off all over the internet with you rantings. About trivial shit.
On yea, You are boring.
Nmaginate, interesting enough Renaldo is Conservo. He is using his real name now. When he left TBWT he stop using Conservo and started going by Renaldo. No one else could come up with such a foolish arguements as the C.C.C.
Let me clarify my position. I do believe in not voting as a political strategic exercise to promote future leverage and respect by the political party that takes our vote for granted. Sometimes one has to take one step back in order to take two steps forwards. I do not promote voting when ones issues or interest is not being represented by any viable candidate. If one argues that black and white issues and interest are essentially the same…then would not white voting suffice in manifesting our goals and interest? The truth is that although there is some overlap, there is much difference in interest or means to an end for our interest, between blacks and whites and those differences are not being represented in the current two party construct.
Scott is simply insecure and weak in his ability to articulate a tenable rebuttal that will logically contradict what we have concluded thus far. All his can do is provide links...in the hopes that those links can better articulate his position better than he can. If that is the case...then it is obvious not his position, but the position of those authors that he links to.
NmagiNATE to be honest I have a hard time figuring out you points because you are so verbose.
If you could reiterate you points in a simple
point 1 point 2 etc I would be happy to reply.
But over the last two days all I have seen for you is ranting and raving (and Noah is correct I am a weak writer and my ideas are often a synthesis of other writings, I wish I could be a clever as you guys and figure everything out on my own without any input).
BTW: why no comments about my post saying that Black Commentor doesn't like Africa Town.
http://blacksforbush.blogspot.com/2004/10/wow-even-black-commentator-doesnt-like.html
I never said you were a weak writer Scott...I am not one to talk because I am an atrocious speller (thank God for spell check). I do not judge what people say in regards to form, but rather by substance. It is the lack of substance in your rebuttals that I find weak...I do not care if you present it in pig latin...if it has logical and truthful premise, inferences and conclusions from your own ponderings...then that is respectable.
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