Moral superiority or different circumstance?
My My My. This Cosby crusade continues to resonate in the forefront as I have just watched an episode of “Night Line” centered on the propositions lamented by famed comedian. By now, we likely all have a synopsis of what Mr. Cosby sees as the problem, which is the lack of personal responsibility and effort on the part of the black poor to make their lives better and too much emphasis placed on dependence on others to improve their condition.
Let us take a closer look at criticism. The prerequisite of criticism is a benchmark established as the metric or proof that the target is not meeting expectations. When an individual criticizes the actions and behavior of others, the benchmark established is normally the criticizers own actions and behavior, lest hypocrisy manifest. Consequently, the juxtaposition is between the actions and behavior of the one criticizing and the target of the criticism. In other words, such criticism is akin to self exaltation as in “look at me and what I have achieved. I reached my status by being morally superior to the rest of you and if you are to better yourselves, you must work on your moral and ethical strength, as I have done”.
Let’s create the hypothetical situation of Ethiopians criticizing Americans for being obese. Say that the Ethiopians claim that American obesity is the result of lack of self control or personal responsibility and this is why Americans are not slim and trim like Ethiopians. However, upon closer analysis, it is not the humanity that is different. The Ethiopians are not morally superior in this hypothetical analogy. Rather, the different behavior is born from the different external circumstances regarding the availability of food. Food is much scarcer and people are less able to afford food in Ethiopia relative to America and thus the temptations and opportunity for obesity are not equal. The Ethiopians are not morally stronger or superior in their humanity, they simply are not lead into temptation to the same degree, out of the lack of opportunity to do such. One should not look down upon the behavior of others unless exposed to similar opportunities and temptation.
Now back to the real life situation of Bill Cosby criticizing and chastising the black poor for their irresponsibility, which creates and or incubates their poverty. Was Bill Cosby, and others like Bill, rise from poverty some 40 years ago the product of being morally and ethically stronger relative to poor today, or was and is it the product of a set of different opportunities and temptations? I would argue with passion that it is the latter (especially given Cosby’s demonstration of moral weakness via several acts of infidelity). Not simply focusing on Cosby, but Cosby’s generation had a different set of opportunities and temptations than does the contemporary black poor. It is this difference in external circumstance and culture that manifest the different behaviorism between the two generations, not a degradation of humanity that manifest as weakening of descendants moral and ethical strength.
The bottom line is that there are really only two camps of thought which all arguments ultimately are rooted in. There is the school of thought that circumstance is the product of internal forces or that circumstance is the product of external forces. And of course, there is the combination or mixture. Essentially, when one argues or alludes that black under performance is rooted internal, one is arguing a genetic predisposition as cause. When one argues or alludes that black under performance is external, one is arguing that the accrued effect of past and present racism, plus environment is the cause. To be sure, Cosby and others who think like Cosby have placed the focus on the internal in his and their criticism and chastising of the black poor. This makes many black folks upset, rightfully so, because more than a few black folk understand the implications of such rhetoric, which feeds the notion that black inferiority is true.
One can make the argument that it is worse to be poor and black in 2005, than it was to be poor and black in 1950. Of course we know that racism and poverty was worse in 1950 than today, but the morality of the nation, via the power of tradition and culture, was much better back then than now. Yes, the racism back them was highly immoral, yet, the morality f the nation surrounding the institution of family was extremely better. Also, there was not all these different drugs flowing into the black communities as the majority of blacks in the 1950s were still living in small towns and semi-rural. The vast majority of blacks were still residing in the South. The mass migration to urban cores exposed blacks to white urban vices (let us not forget how even the Pope has admitted white exportation of vices to Africa and hence Africans), which they emulated. Thus, some things have gotten better in the last 50 years for blacks and some things have gotten worse. One thing for certain, however, is that times are different. Who knows how Cosby would have turned out had he been born in this era and not the one he was born in? Who is to say that if many of the poor blacks today were born in Cosby era that they would not manifest just as equally as did Cosby’s generation.
All one has to do is contrast and compare how families were portrayed in the 50’s vs. now, to see how culture has been eroded. Look at the family on the program “Leave it to Beaver” and the subliminal conditioning of what a family should be like. Contrast that with “Desperate housewives”, “Married with Children” or all the other programming that make alternative lifestyles to marriage seem acceptable. What people fail to realize is that in this modern era, culture is transmitted in large degree from the electronic medium of television. Cosby’s generation did not have the problem of conditioning via electronic medium, because the medium was in its infancy. Consequently, culture and tradition was emulated through the family and community, not TV as it is today. Cosby’s generation did not have the opportunity of the temptations and conditioning that alters behavior like what exists today. His generation was not stronger; it simply did not have these types of morally degrading forces bombarding them. It was a much less “individualistic” society back then.
I would be at fault if I did not mention the impact of drugs in the black community. Is/was it a conspiracy or coincidence that drugs started flooding the black community at the zenith of black militancy and the era that J Edgar Hoover proclaimed black militancy as the number one threat to the nation’s security? Black militancy was seen as terrorism is seen today. Who thinks that the FBI just sat on their hands to see how black militancy would pan out? Drugs proliferation has the effect of turning black militancy and unrest inwards instead of outwards. It provided an underground economy that provided income to disenfranchised blacks and it created competition and addicts that dried up militancy and produced junkies, criminals, gangs and destroyed the ability these people be a responsible part of a family. There is plenty of evidence revealing how the government played a role in pumping drugs into the black community and the history of divide and conquer has and is a tried and true methodology of suppression. Cosby’s generation did not have to deal with this in degree, if not kind.
In conclusion, I am one of those who objects to Cosby’s crusade and the crusade and rhetoric of many black conservatives. The reason is that it camps in the school of thought of black inferiority. Of course, they (conservatives) would suggest that I am liberal and that liberalism is predicated upon the asumption that blacks are inferior and need special assitance. The truth is that the expectation of blacks to rise without assitance is the expecation of black superiority. To be born with more external obsticles and disadvantages than others, yet held to the same expecatation as others, logicaly depends on a superiority over others to manifest such equality.
The failure of blacks to manifest superiority results in our continued collective inferior condition. As our parents long have told us….we have to work twice as hard as white folks just to get what white folks got. Manifesting an equal effort for blacks, given the extra resistance we face, will almost always produce inferior results. These inferior results are then interpreted as the resultant of inferior effort and not superior obsticals, as it should be. Consquently, so much of the energy expended by black poor is spent fighting the obsticles and temptations that others do not face, that many have little energy left to rise to equality. Equal effort does not produce equal results when environmental resitance and hence circumstances are unequal variables.
posted by Noah TA @ 5/27/2005 08:37:00 AM
31 comments
31 Comments:
Very well said, you covered it all. I agree.
Shemika
Noah TA…While I appreciate your thoroughness of thought, I would be remiss if I didn’t comment on a couple of areas where our opinions diverge.
Your implication that Cosby’s argument is framed in moral superiority, using himself as the standard of all-that-is-good, is unfounded.
There are practical measures Black Folk must subscribe to in order to uplift our community. I share his view that as a people we must resist materialism, celebrity worship, the over-sexualization of African American women and move toward a culture of sustainability, renewal, and revival.
I agree with your assertion that today’s generation is facing much more potent limiting factors, but don’t forget this generation also has the benefit of standing on the shoulders of the civil rights trailblazers of the past.
Cosby’s method of delivery may be rough around the edges, but his message is grounded in truth.
Your Blog is thought provoking…I’m adding a link to my site.
Rodney, have you ever heard Bill Cosby talk about promiscuity and infidelity? No, the likely reason being is that he cannot take the morally superior stance and would be seen as a hypocrite, given his own record.
You cannot tell someone or another group that THEY have it wrong unless you yourself have it right. Was Cosby including himself in the criticism of black people? No, in order to stand up on a pedestal and condemn others, at the very least the condemner must be free of guilt from what is being condemned.
I think that statement was indeed well founded. Cosby’s crusade does not employ an inclusive WE. When Cosby talks about what black people need to do, he excludes himself because he feels he has already done it. Therefore, he is not part of the problem and hence he can stand before the black masses as a morally superior to the target of his condemnation.
I think that given history, we know that whites, as the general rule, have been against our progress and equality. That is simply a fact. Consequently, black should not have the expectations that whites will be responsible and accountable for the problems in created. Therefore, blacks taking ownership of our rise, in such a climate, is a must. That having been said, when we talk about our problems, regardless of the truth of us having to take ownership to solve them, the origin of the problem is past and present racism. The problems should not be framed as black in origin, as Cosby does. The problem is not black parents naming their child Kwazee, the problem is those who discriminate against the name because of perceived negative connotations.
I think that when the topic is black problems in America, rarely are you talking about problems that is caused by blacks, in and of themselves. If we did not come over from Africa with the behavioral trait, then what exist is the product and reaction of living under white domination and influence.
I am glad you enjoy the blog Rodney. Hopefully our disagreement will does not prevent unity.
What is your site...So We can return the favor?
Since all (or most, I don’t know how you would break it down percentage wise) of our pathology is the result of white racism (past and present), where does our responsibility reside? Should we just sit back and destroy ourselves until we convince the all-powerful, racist, white man to acknowledge his misdeeds and rescue us? What do you propose we should do beyond placing external blame and rationalizing our misbehavior? Is it possible for us to critique each other without being considered race traitors, sellouts, or Negro conservatives? I guess what I’m looking for is some model for uplift that is focused on internal self-criticality: a model that encourages and focuses on self-reliance. As a community, we have to whip each other into shape. We can’t just keep talking about what the white man does. At some point we have to develop some sort of plan for personal/community betterment.
I don’t agree with the man 100%, but I think that black folks need to check each other like Cosby did more often (it touched a nerve and ruffled feathers because it was pertinent). It’s his right to state his opinion, even if it’s wrong or hypocritical. He doesn’t have to be perfect to make a public criticism, because he’s a free, sovereign individual and can do what the hell he wants (right and wrong; like truth, is an opinion, a point of view). He has just as much right to make a public idiot of himself as the next guy. To some he’s a fool; to others he’s a hero. So be it, get over it. His criticism doesn’t necessarily make him a race traitor in my book (at least not yet). I’m sure he thinks he’s helping black folks in his own way. We each have to decide for ourselves what his comments mean for us.
When I was at the Million Man March, brothers were constantly checking each other very openly, even if it embarrassed them in the moment. If a group of cats were smoking weed, or mackin’ on some shorties, brothers would approach them sternly, but respectfully and remind them that the march was about atonement and reflection. It was a beautiful thing to see, and we need more of that in our disadvantaged communities. I think a lot of black folks were hurt by Cosby’s words because he’s a public figure, but that doesn’t necessarily make him wrong across the board. Besides, it’s just his opinion; if you don’t agree, just blow it off and forget about it. The Cosby thing is really just a class issue though. Cosby reps the black bourgeois experience. When the Cosby show was on TV, inner city blacks hated it. They thought it was a false depiction of African-American life. They felt that blacks don’t really live like that. It was all over the media. Basically, Cosby can’t relate to poor blacks, and poor blacks can’t relate to him. It’s just like when I was in college; most of the brothers that came from poverty were do’in the Afrocentric, black-nationalist thing, and the middle class brothers were just worrying about getting into law or business school. And neither group liked the other, but they each thought that their behavior was for the uplift of black folks (go figure?). I think that Cosby’s openness to say those things simply highlights that the class divide amongst blacks is ever widening.
Renu
Renu, not only is it possible to critique one another without being considered a race traitors or sellout, it is something we have always done and continue to do, you even provided an example of that and it is not the only example. Cosby drunken out burst was not simply him critiquing play people or Black pathology, it was him laying blame for our current condition and realities on us and excusing all external factors. Cosby is free to do as he please, just as we are free to respond to anything said by him. Noah makes an excellent point when he points out that Cosby critique of Black people are only in those areas where he sees himself as being morally superior to “those” lower economic people. However, a closer scrutiny of Cosby will show that even his own life story is filled with the ignorant romanticizing of his accomplishments.
How many people know that Cosby failed the 10th grade three times and never graduated High School? How many people know he joined the Navy where he earned his G.E.D. and after leaving the Navy enrolled in Temple University where he again dropped out of school, this time to pursue a career in entertainment that has served as the basis of all romanticizing about him? Cosby was later awarded and Honorary Degree from Temple University, hence he never actually completed his college matriculation. He then parlayed his honorary degree into a Doctorate Degree, but even that has controversy surrounding it. Cosby was awarded class credits for appearing Sesame Street and the Electric Company and wrote his dissertation on the impact of his television shows and according to one professor he did not complete the necessary classroom time for a Doctorate but yet somehow he was still awarded one. Essentially without his entertainment career he is one of those lower economic people he talk about. Cosby, is Kevin Garnett, He is Lebron James except that neither of them have given money to Black causes but give it time. Maybe after they are awarded honorary degrees we will then consider them experts on political and socio-economic realities surrounding the Black condition.
Even with all of that, Cosby track record in regards to his early activism which is non-existent makes it even more interesting that this apolitical person will all of a sudden start questioning the will and drive of Black men and women. Cosby can not give enough money that will provide him with the equity necessary to speak ignorantly about Black people.
That’s cool that you feel that way, but I tend to look at it differently. Viewed from another vantage point, all the things you said about Cosby just make his ascension and prominence even more amazing – especially considering when he achieved it. All that says is that he worked very hard, and overcame many obstacles, including his own faults (I know you don’t really believe that building a thriving entertainment career was easy for a black man back then. Hell, it’s still difficult today). Besides, there’s nothing suspect about an honorary doctorate, they’re given out all the time to dignitaries (no course work is completed, hence the term honorary). It’s a common practice. Expert on the black experience or not: the man can say what he wants, that’s freedom of speech. If you don’t like it, change the channel. He doesn’t give a damn if the very people he’s critiquing (or anyone for that matter) curse his name; he’s openly acknowledged that.
You’ve deduced (I believe incorrectly) that Cosby was speaking from a moral high ground. Based on that, you endeavor to find things in his past that you believe are amoral as a means to call him a hypocrite. That’s standard protocol for someone who feels hurt, injured, or threatened by the words or actions of another. Character assassination is something we see done all the time in politics, especially by conservatives. Such tactics were also used against Malcolm X and MLK (and all of our leaders for that manner). Racist whites felt injured by the efforts of these leaders, so they dug into their past and tried to find things to discredit them. In MLK’s case, it was his many infidelities. For Malcolm, it was his past as a hustler, and his relationship with Elijah Muhammad (a known philander). Obviously, as a people, we’re not above engaging/employing such smear tactics, even though we preach black love and all.
I’m well aware of his comments, and Cosby “did not” place the blame on us (I don’t know why you cats keep saying this). He said it’s up to us to change our communities. That’s not placing blame, that’s calling for a greater degree of responsibility. I find it a bit silly to conflate his criticism with a desire to let whites (white racism) off the hook. If we can’t handle hearing our dirty laundry aired by one of our own, then we’re in deep shit (of course, we are anyway). Even if Cosby had said nothing, black American’s would still be all screwed up. Whether on likes or dislikes the man, and his comments, he’s an amazing cat for accomplishing all that he has. He experienced a brand of racism that young blacks today never encountered, and he made something of himself despite those obstacles. I suppose one could make a case that things are harder today than in the past, but it would be a naïve and bankrupt argument.
I’m re-posting the first part of my last post, because I would still like to know your thoughts:
Since all (or most, I don’t know how you would break it down percentage wise) of our pathology is the result of white racism (past and present), where does our responsibility reside? Should we just sit back and destroy ourselves until we convince the all-powerful, racist, white man to acknowledge his misdeeds and rescue us? What do you propose we should do beyond placing external blame and rationalizing our misbehavior? Is it possible for us to critique each other without being considered race traitors, sellouts, or Negro conservatives? I guess what I’m looking for is some model for uplift that is focused on internal self-criticality: a model that encourages and focuses on self-reliance. As a community, we have to whip each other into shape. We can’t just keep talking about what the white man does/did. At some point we have to develop some sort of plan for personal/community betterment. What are your thoughts?
Renu
One more thing I forgot to say. Malcolm and MLK both made public criticisms of the black community during their era: and their criticisms were much sharper, and more biting than anything Cosby said. In fact, most blacks hated them, especially the poor ones. Both men had extremely imperfect pasts (immoral, as you say), but black folks love em' now.
Just wanted to put that out there.
Renu
Renu, the rise of the black population to equilibrium will not be the resultant of entertainers. Based upon Cosby’s critique, there are people guilty of all the things Cosby has lamented, but they have gained success via sports and or entertainment, as has he. Furthermore, whites have always looked at blacks as “entertainment” or physical specimen. Some people simply have the “gift” of humor. Those people who are gifted do not have to work as hard as those who are not as gifted. Who really knows how hard Cosby worked to get were he is? It could be that he worked hard, it could be that he simply had the gift or it could be that he simply got the “right break”, by being at the right place at the right time. If Cosby did not have comedic genius, there but for the grace of God go he….the same folks he is now condemning.
I don’t now how you can rationalize that Cosby is not taking the moral high ground here. Why and how could he condemn and criticize others of something that he himself is guilty of? How could YOU do such? Certainly one of the big problems in our society is the break down of the family unit. Certainly infidelity is the type of act that can and does lead to family breakups and children being torn apart in the separation. Why does not Cosby talk about this? It’s a valid and real national problem…. but not a word about it from Cosby. Why? Quite simply, the reason is that he cannot chastise others for that which he himself is guilty of. In order to avoid hypocrisy, one must ALWAYS occupy the high moral ground if they are to avoid being a hypocrite.
No, Cosby did not place the blame on the collective us, rather, he placed the blame of black poverty on the collective them. The poor black parents are not teaching their kids to speak properly. The poor black parents are giving their children all these crazy names, and not a good respected English name like Bill. The poor black parents are not being responsible. I think that there is plenty of evidence that Cosby was blaming the continuation of black poverty rates on the behavior of blacks.
Everything happens for a reason and that reason is causation. If black people are irresponsible, what force is making this so? What action created this reaction and can curing the action dissipate the negative reaction?
I don’t care how much responsibility you assume for your health while living in a community that is or was a toxic dump. You can be as responsible as they come. However, until the toxic material is removed from the environment, residents will continue to get sick at rates much higher than those who don’t live in a toxic environment.
NmagiNATE,
Martin Luther King was hated and considered a fringe leader and a troublemaker by most blacks across the nation until Bayard Rustin intervened with his strategies of non-violent resistance. Rustin was the one that strategized to make the resistance effort publicly visible (i.e. on television etc). King only gained the support of the black community after they witnessed sit-ins and protests where non-violent tactics were being utilized. Before this, King was despised.
Malcolm X was hated even worse than King, and did not attain the mass public fondness of the black community until “after” his death. Once the Civil Rights Movement was in full swing and making progress publicly (i.e. after Rustin’s involvement), most blacks followed King’s strategy, and found Malcolm X’s vicious attacks against King (and other Civil Rights leaders), his advocacy of armed self-defense, racial separatism, and radicalism repugnant. Not to mention that the Nation of Islam remains largely disliked to this day.
That’s a little history lesson for you. I welcome you to scurry off and scour the internet to prove me wrong.
I’ll give it to ya’ though, you’re a master at twisting people’s words and taking them out of context to support your needs. But you still haven’t answered my question in regards to our accountability as black American’s. Any thoughts?
Noah,
I like your toxic waste analogy, but my questions is; “should we wait for the city to clean up the waste, or should we clean it up ourselves?” We all know that the city dumped it there (as do they), but they continually ignore our pleas. Now what? Shouldn’t we do something? We must take responsibility for our personal and community health... yes? Wasn't that Cosby's point?
I think it’s safe to say that it was unbelievably difficult for a black man to rise up in entertainment during that time. Many documentary films and books have been made that tell the racist history of Hollywood. I suggest that you watch the films, “Ethnic Notions,” and “Color Adjustments” (both by Marlon Riggs). If you want a list of sources, I would be happy to make one for you, because the intense discrimination experienced by black entertainers has been well documented. The same was true for black athletes back then, but that info is easy to obtain. Many of the athletes today are just spoiled, egotistical idiots with no consciousness whatsoever. But you can’t compare them to Cosby and the cats that struggled during the Civil Rights era and prior.
Cosby may have committed a few infidelities, but he’s married and has raised and supported his family. Everyone makes mistakes, that’s part of being human. He’s not like many black men with illegitimate children all over the place. Infidelity is in no way limited to black people. There’s not a corner of the globe, where it’s not occurring. But we (black folks) certainly suffer when it comes to sticking together as families, and properly raising our children. Yes, we can cite all of the injustices inflicted upon us that contribute to this behavior. But what should our role be in reversing this trend, beyond indicting outside forces?
Like I said before, I don’t agree with the man entirely, but I still don’t see the moral high ground you’re talking about. Yes, he is speaking from the perspective of someone who’s made it, but that’s not inherently a moral high ground. I think he spoke out of anger and frustration. He said things that were nasty, ill-considered, and without regard for their impact. But he was not wrong across the board. Also, if you look at Cosby’s history in depth, you will see that he has spent his life speaking out against the evils of racism. Simply put, I think he’s a good man, who basically got in over his head. That’s the curse of being famous; all one’s actions and comments are broadcast world-wide.
Again, I don’t see where Cosby was blaming the plight of the black poor on the black poor. And I have reviewed his words at depth. Criticizing their behavior as a contributing factor, and ignoring racism is not the same thing. We do have a responsibility to ourselves. We have agency. We’re not hapless victims that exist totally at the whims of racists. Cosby was calling upon them to change, but he was not letting the system off the hook either. It’s a giant leap to assert that Cosby is saying that. You can call Cosby many things, but you can’t call him stupid (black men of his era didn’t get that far by being dumb). He knows our history and plight all too well. I just believe that a man of his stature, history, and who loves his culture as he does should be respected. You must keep in mind that his intentions were to help, not to hurt. For a man known for his flair with words, you’d think he could have articulated himself with more grace and sensitivity.
Best,
Renu
Ahhhh, Renu, the question is does the black community have the RESOURCES to clean up the toxic materials on their own? The truth is that sometimes a problem is larger than the abilities and resources of a people or community to solve on their own. In such as case, is it being irresponsible to look to the source of the toxic waste to take ownership of cleaning it up?
In regards to the difficulty of Cosby’s entertainment matriculation, that was simply just the era. Cosby did not have to become educated, he did not have to speak perfect English and use perfect grammar. He did not have to be married. If he had children out of wedlock, it would not have hurt his chances. All Cosby did was to keep knocking at the door of entertainment, until he found a white person willing to answer and let him in. His success was not a product of being the opposite what he now condemns, his success was likely from the same merits of a rapper who breaks into the big time by being relentless and knocking on a lot of doors.
Yes, Cosby may have committed a few (based upon what we know) infidelities, but the marriage stayed together because of his wife decision to stick with him. Cosby gets no credit for the marriage working. Had Camille, his wife, slept around a few times with public knowledge, Bill would have hit the roof and left her. He transgressed and his wife forgave him, when other women may not have.
Its funny that when it comes to infidelity, you can lament that such is ubiquitous among all groups and nationalities. Yet, you don’t make the same type of scope creeping in regards to amoral behavior Cosby condemns poor blacks for. Whites and all other peoples are guilty of these things too. If you can normalize infidelity, why can’t you normalize the traits Cosby implies are endemic to poor blacks? Once you normalize behavior, then it becomes impossible to link social and economic racial gaps to abnormal behaviorism in the black community. This is why conservative type must make black behavior seem abnormal from the rest of humanity….for them, they see it as a “Black Thang”.
If Cosby spoke out of anger and frustration, which is plausible, he certainly was not angry and frustrated by his own behavior, but rather, the behavior of others. Had he manifested similar behavior, would he be angry and frustrated and on a soapbox going around the country condemning his behavior and others? Of course not. Cosby is assuming the moral high ground here. As I said, that is the only thing that prevents him from being a hypocrite.
Renu, you are like many who continue to romanticize about Cosby and his rise and his commitment to Black people. I do not think anyone has traced Cosby history or illustrated his rise better that Eric Dyson has in his book. I can regurgitate all the truths about Cosby that are facts and undisputed that will destroy your notion that he was a man that stood up for Black folk over the course of his entertainment career. Cosby was considered a non-negro by white folk and that helped his ascension, you can do the research yourself.
The purpose of mentioning the Honorary degree Cosby has was to make you and who ever else reading this discussion know that Cosby is not the big intellectual or educated man that people think he is, he is a man that has flourished based on his skill in entertainment and that alone, and this is why I said he is KG, he is Lebron James.
What You Renu and so many others fail to realize is that Cosby only got and get the attention he has because he absolved institutional and structural racism in America of all responsibility for the realities it produce. Any of the many speeches by Minister Farrakhan over the last two decades will prove to be far more critical than anything Cosby said, but all of his comments are contextual while telling us of our responsibility. Cosby love to talk about Black criminality and getting shot in the head over a pound cake but he was in Court with and supporting Martha Stewart, a corporate thief but I guess his support of her criminal behavior is something we can over look as well and is far different from a poor mother or father supporting their child who is a criminal.
We do not argue against Black men and women doing the right thing for ourselves to help ourselves, but scared to death Negroes who are defending Cosby and not necessarily you in this instance but others were afraid and are afraid to support an idea like Africa Town as proposed in Detroit. Black men and women pathologies as constantly noted by anyone that study them, are simply singled out more than white folk pathologies. This is why we can be a low fraction of drug users and sellers but make up the highest percentage of people incarcerated for these crimes. We can handle our problems, no people I believe have problems that they as a people can not handle it is only when their own problems are compounded with the external forces causing problems for them do we see a condition like the one we see Black men and women in today.
I still agree with Noah. Blacks were allowed to be entertainers or athletes before they were allowed to work in an office or department stores even. That's not to say entertainers didn't experience racism. But whites love being entertained and if someone black is very talented and happens to make the right connections they will always be willing to hire that black talent to make a buck for themselves.
Traditonally once black become sucessful in their careers they often forget where they came from. Which by the way, most would not have had it not been for the sacrifices of blacks who fought and died before them. They fail to realize that on individual levels many are still up against racism and not all of us will successfully combat it. Those who do should be thankful and humble rather than arrogant and condescending.
They fail to realize that just because some strives were made it doesn't guarantee their continued existence, as history will tell you. After slavery ended there was a similar civil rights movement in which blacks made great strides. And with the stroke of a pen it was all taken away, replaced by segregation and Jim Crow laws. That's why we should always be on guard and never assume we have arrived and all is well as long as we are living under someone else’s roof and legal control.
To grow strong we must recognize our enemies, realities, and limitations so we can honestly plan a means of combating them. Our people get beat down and blamed enough by other condescending ethnic groups who take whatever we have to offer to benefit themselves and keep stepping. We don’t need to be doing the same to each other. We need sympathy, support, consideration and uplifting in order to build trust and a bond amongst ourselves.
We all have gifts and skills in certain areas that we can use to network, organize, and assist each other, and devise plans to empower ourselves. This starts with building up each other’s self-esteem by using our strengths to build up each others weakness. We can't have unrealistic expectations of single mothers and abandoned children we wouldn't give the time of day. We must start giving each other the time of day, organizing and being an outreach for each other.
This is what the Black Panther organization was doing. They organized neighborhood programs across the nation, such as breakfast and mentoring programs for kids and educational programs in poor communities. They knew the law and when blacks ran into problems used that knowledge to support them and protect their rights. That's why they were the object of hatred by the government.
shemika
Ah yes, the unfortunate cycle once again!
I’ve been following this debacle with much amusement. It’s textbook black ignorance unfolding in grotesque splendor. Renu and Rodney Trice, you are fine, articulate men who are obviously educated and erudite. These children say they are about black love, but as you have witnessed, they have no respect for those who disagree with them. No love, just irrational hate and anger. In case you haven’t seen this post before, I have pasted in my now nine-point breakdown of this absurd forum. Enjoy!
Dialogues on this blog tend to go like this:
1. A random issue is selected where there is some abuse being inflicted upon so-called black people (usually by the hands of a black conservative, white people [white supremacy], racism, capitalism etc). This issue is usually taken from some shaky website as opposed to a book. Because the issue is selected and presented as means to validate a particular world-view, it becomes a trap for those who disagree with its flawed reasoning.
2. A few people will write in and say how much they agree. Which, of course, is the reason for the subject being posted in the first place… call and response.
3. Someone with a dissenting view will post their opinion.
4. The original poster (and his lackeys) will defend the issue by telling the dissenter that they have presented precise, logically sound, unflappable, airtight, and intellectually impervious information.
5. At least one of the lackeys will then suggest that the dissenting individual’s writing looks like someone else’s (which of course is irrelevant), at which point the lacky will then call the person a coward, and somehow think this provides them with the basis to dismiss the dissenting comment.
6. After unsuccessful attempts to thwart the dissenting poster, über lackey NmagiNATE will appear, and will rant hysterically and incoherently – nitpicking and grossly misreading everything the dissenting party said. He will then say comically that they have said a lot without saying anything – which is really the pot calling the kettle black.
7. Lackey NmagiNATE will then begin saying ‘white supremacy/white supremacist society’ repeatedly and then he will find creative ways to call the dissenting individual stupid until they go away. The name calling/cursing is usually a sign that the lackey’s have been ruffled, and have reached the limits of their knowledge. Multiple, frenetic postings, attempting to thwart the dissenter are a sign of this as well.
8. The original poster and his lackey's will tell the dissenter that they do not have to come to their forum, and that maybe they should start their own blog. Really intelligent words from individuals who have created a public forum supposedly dedicated to open dialogue. They cannot even defend their actions, so they tell dissenters to go away instead. If you disagree, you are not welcome... period! Once you are gone, they will snicker and chatter amongst themselves as they attempt to convince each other that they have successfully out-debated the dissenter.
9. A new issue is posted and the cycle continues…
These children do not want to have a discussion unless all parties agree with their point of view. They lack basic knowledge of their own culture and history, and they don’t want to attain it if it will change or broaden their horizons. But the worst thing is that they cannot conceive that they have any role in, and or responsibility for their plight. You ask them and they will either ignore the question, start tap dancing, or become evasive. They can only see themselves as victims with no recourse to resist white racism. The white man must change, but never them (Textbook Victimology). They’re strategy is to complain about the white man, and hopefully he will decide to save them. Someday they will realize that we control our own destiny – hopefully before it’s too late. Black people could easily throw off the shackles of self-annihilation once they changed their attitude and behavior. All of their negativity, anger and ignorance are precisely the problem plaguing the black community. We only see ourselves as victims with no responsibility for our own situation (no self-criticality). As long as we think that the white man is the sole cause of our dysfunction, then we are doomed.
Once again, for you and your lackey’s:
What you are doing is not subversive, incendiary, uplifting or enlightening for black people. Embracing other races and eroding racism through love, compassion, and understanding is the only truly revolutionary gesture. That’s why Malcolm was assassinated when he began to think of race and oppression globally – and beyond a local, hate-filled, black essentialist and reactionary point of view. He became dangerous when he started to embrace humanity and engage in international anti-racist directives. I know that you mean well, and that’s why I’m telling you these things. I can see the sadness, the hurt, the anger, and the frustration in all of your posts. You must rise above these feelings and work with others (including white people and black conservatives), and make this nation a better place. Stop thinking that your history makes you special. The ‘peculiar institution’ does not give you the right to bore us endlessly with your inferiority complex thinly veiled as race pride. Think about it…
Let the cycle continue, because it is important for such forums to be exposed for what they truly are… bastions of black self-annihilation, and self-pity.
Yours truly,
Nat Turner Jones
In your pattern recognition, you ignored the most obvious pattern of all, which is truth. No matter how you characterize our motives, the effects of our rhetoric, what we should be doing or should not be doing, the pattern that you have never recognized is prevarication. If there is/was falsehood in what we have said, then certainly people of intelligence, would bring them to light and contradict our assertions.
When people have so many problems with the truth being presented, it is likely due to the fact that they have a vested interest in deceit or denial. When people say that we are guilty of hate and animosity, for speaking the truth, then what are those Pharisees and Scribes of deceit and denial guilty of…. love and righteousness? I think not.
Presenting a well-written and articulate lie is not a substitute for the truth. Being intelligent is no substitute for being truthful. Being in the favor of others is not substitute for truth. The only substitute for truth is truth itself.
No matter what name you post your commentary under, a weak and obfuscated dissent is always recognizable…. as well as invalid.
I am glad you are entertained by our little blog. As much as you are taken aback from it and as much as you perceive it to be counterproductive….you keep fueling our success from your continued patronage…go figure….now who is the fool?
Jones, is becoming as predictable as he would have us believe we are. We know that he will not respond to the truths being spoken he will speak all around it and even go so far as to chronicle the way a discussion will happen on this Blog as if there is a Blog anywhere on the web that can not have the discussions that take place on them chronicled in a list as he has made about this Blog.
This is why I continue to say if you are not going to speak to the issue or discussion at hand, don’t speak at all or start your own Blog because apparently you have something to say that is not the center of any discussion on this Blog. But people like Jones, would never do that because it would expose him as being nothing more than a dissenter himself without any idea's. But as always, it is good to know you think so much of us to follow our Blog, not to worry though Jones you are not the only one..
At least make an attempt to deviate from the script... Damn!
I'm just having fun here. You guys are so easy to manipulate into hysterics.
Until we meet again,
Nat Turner Jones
Nat Turner Jones,
If you disagree with his posts why do you take the time to keep reading them? No one cares what you think. I know I don't.
The fact you took the time to respond points out your contempt for the rights of blacks to think for themselves. Whether you are black or an Uncle Tom, you need to take your own advice and get over the fact that you disagree with the writer. Even though you complain about people agreeing with him; you had no problem complimenting those you agreed with…Which reveals what a fraud you are.
Your criticism of blacks apparently means you think whites have it all together. Do you go over to the forums of the many white supremist groups who blame innocent blacks for everything their lazy asses never earned and admonish them for their ranting and desire to murder and hinder the progress of blacks? I bet not, because you are probably one of them or some wanta-be, married to a white woman. That fact such groups exist as well as such selectively observant morons as yourself make it obvious where the real problem lies.
Yet you are so full of yourself you come over here with that hypocrisy. I for one wouldn't trust self-worshiping white folks any further than I could throw them, nor anyone else enchanted with them. The only ‘help’ many of them give is manipulative, counterproductive and self-serving. Dead bent against allowing blacks to become independently powerful and supportive of each other; which is clearly what you fear.
I encourage the writer to keep writing as he has and not allow some fake, pathological bigot such as your self to deter him. Mind your own business and do you own thing elsewhere. He has just as much right to voice his opinion as hateful, complaining, white people do. .
It’s my belief that the fact you disagree with him means he is on the right track! Keeping pissing this creep off you guys.
Shemika
With a name like Shemika, you "must" be one of those "lower economic types" Cosby was talking about.
All you can do for me is "get ya' eagle on girl, and back that thang up!"
Nat Turner Jones
Wow... Shemika smacks Jones upside the head with truth and exposes his hypocrisy and he resort to lyrics from Nelly and Juvenile, which coincidentally best describes his response to her.
Clearly Shemika is an intelligent woman who sees right through Jones who should never be referred to as "Nat Turner".
Unfortunately, things are getting nasty here.
Frankly, I don't blame black folks for being angry at Cosby. He said what he said, and now he has to live with the reverberations. It was to be expected. I don't "entirely" agree with your criticisms of the man, but I still understand our people's feelings of betrayal.
I don't really care as much about the Cosby issue as much as I am concerned with the problem it brought to the fore – which is the level of accountability we are responsible for. What is our role in fighting the system beyond external critique? Are we exempt from personal responsibility over our actions because of racism? Is every act of black depravity and underacheivement the fault of white racism – and therefore excuseable?
Is it possible for a black person to engage in a public critique of black behavior without being branded a sellout, Oreo cookie, boot-licking uncle tom (or whatever creative disparaging term people come up with)?
What I gather from this discussion (Noah) is that such actions are inexcusable and considered traitorous. It seems that the only acceptable critique (in your opinion) is one that would be directed at the racist system. Thus blacks are exempt from any personal responsibility because they are victims.
Is this an accurate assessment of your views?
Best,
Renu
Hey Noah:
I few weeks ago I watched a documentary on the "Lost Boys Of Sudan".
Prior to their departure from the refugee camp in Kenya a leader of their cause made the following statement:
[quote]the leader to the Sudanese People Liberation Army said to the boys before they went to America (and yes he is a Black African):
The S.P.L.A. is in my hand. Dear one, our people are tyring to return Sudan to normal. We have been fighting the Arabs with guns and it has no end.n n The Lost Boys are going to the US because you are the future of Sudan.
Don't act like those people who wear the [b]Baggy Jeans, who do all the bad things in America.[/b]
[/quote]
Where might he have gotten such notions about Black Ameicans from?
I read Dyson’s book, and I think he’s largely wrong about Cosby (though he does make some valid points), and I would be willing to bet that many blacks of all socio-economic backgrounds would agree with his (Cosby’s) diatribe (I see this echoed in news reports often). I’m not saying this to change your mind, but Dyson is by no stretch the final word on the issue, or on black life for that matter. In fact, Dyson isn’t really very respected in academic culture (even by Black/Africana Studies professors and Depts.). The reason is that he doesn’t really produce academic/intellectual work, and also because he’s a black essentialist – which is regarded as "the" quintessential brand of non-academic parochialism. He’s produces mainly vernacular and popular literary works. Which is fine, I have no problem with it (it has its place) – but it’s not regarded as having a meaningful impact on the most important discussions that currently drive “black intellectual” thought and culture. Cornell West and Henry Louis Gates are also regarded in this way.
Dyson’s books are akin to self-help literature for the purpose of elevating black self-esteem. Such literary works have become a lucrative genre within the publishing industry, but it doesn’t constitute work worthy of serious scholarly/intellectual contemplation. (In short, it should be read for pleasure, but not as an authoritative reference) Even online, the general tenor regarding Dyson’s book is that he has come undone a bit, and has succumbed to a little irrational anger. Obviously, if Cosby’s words stung enough for Dyson to write an entire book in response, the actor’s comments were extremely important.
Better sources would be Paul Gilroy, Kimberly Crenshaw, Frantz Fanon, Kobena Mercer, Michelle Wallace, and several others. I would suggest looking back to the writings of Locke, DuBois, Washington, Toomer, Baldwin, Hughes, etc. There’s nothing new about the issues Cosby raised and the ensuing debate. Black scholars, intellectuals, and literary types have been discussing these issues for many decades. You obviously regard Dyson very highly (no doubt because you feel he’s an authority that validates your opinions), but you should know that his work is not considered seminal by academic/intellectual culture. Put more plainly, he will not be situated amongst the great black thinkers of the past. I tell you this simply for informational purposes. Take it how you will.
That being said, I like Dyson, and I enjoy his books and lectures.
The problem with this discussion is that it’s entirely a-historical, and uninformed to the genealogy of such issues. Building a knowledge base of our rich intellectual culture will give a depth and insight that will help contextualize this discussion beyond pop-culture triviality and mass media silliness.
Again, I suggest reading beyond popular literature for more meaningful insights.
Best,
Renu
NmagiNATE,
You’re just twisting words and arguments around here fella… Nothing you just wrote bears any resemblance to what I’ve been saying. Furthermore, I’ve never seen you prove anything, or present a logically sound, or compelling argument (as if that’s ever been a requisite on this forum). All I see are opinions. You just rant, rant, rant – but that’s not the same thing as making an argument – and it’s definitely not compelling.
Obviously, you’re just threatened by me because everything I say gets you all worked up. Otherwise you would simply articulate your position calmly, or just ignore me (the latter wouldn’t be bad). Don’t start demanding of me what is to-date non-existent on this site. Now, if you want to discuss the authors I mentioned – to ground the discussion in something concrete beyond mere opinions and elaborate “conjecture” masquerading as intellectualism – I would be more than willing to indulge you. Hell, we can go chapter by chapter through Dyson’s book for that matter. Let’s debate something based on an actual source for a change?
Again, I’m not interested in defending, or condemning Cosby. What he said was definitely problematic, but not entirely wrong, or without significance – culturally speaking. What I said before is that I’m most compelled by the issues brought to bear by his comments – issues that have historical precedents and antecedents. For some reason, nobody wants to discuss the issue of accountability (and I’m not the only one asking for this). All I’m getting is evasiveness.
I don’t know about you NmagiNATE, but I’m engaged in a calm and civil discussion. You’re the one oozing with anger and contempt. Anyone can see you’re the one wearing their emotions on their sleeves.
Chill brother,
Best,
Renu
Renu, please share with me the African studies Depts that do not respect Dyson, Cornell and Gates. I am no fan of Gates myslef but am still interested in those who you claim do not respect these men.
Please also share with me those area where you believe Dyson is wrong, and finally I am sure we all agree with or like who we like based on how our own belief mesh with theirs, thus saying I like Dyson because he and I agree on many things goes without saying and is no different than you liking those whom you agree with. This discussion has run its course but before I move on, please share with me the things I asked about.
Faheem,
Thanks for the question. I will respond in depth soon.
Best,
Renu
O.K. NmagiNATE, I think I now have an accurate picture of where you're coming from.
Thanks for the comments.
Best,
Renu
Noah you have made assumptions about Cosby that are in error. He is not a negro-con.
He has put his hard earned money into the civil rights movement. He has not stated that he as against affimative action, nor that he was for vouchers.
All he has stated was that, he and others of the civil rights movement had worked very hard and lowered the walls of racism, a FACT that you have admitted in your commentary.
He has put hundreds of thousands if not millions of his own dollars into civil rights organizations. He has used his fame to raise even more.
You guys seem to be on dyson's Jock, well how much money has he given to civil rights organizations ? At best and insignificant fraction of Cosby.
End of day, if YOU don't teach your children to READ, teach them to stay out of trouble and not be criminals. No amount of civil rights marches are going to save them.
BTW: you are 100% correct, children today do have it harder than in the past. And that because their parents are NOT doing their job. That is what cosby said in his speech and it true. To quote you.
"Equal effort does not produce equal results when environmental resitance and hence circumstances are unequal variables."
But what are these environmental variable, lets see parent letting kids watch tv, parents not home because there is no father in the picture. Parents not making sure the homework is done. Parents buying them video games they play all day.
Only 24% of blacks live in poverty. You have a choice, say that 24% is doing all it can, and leave them in poverty which is where they will stay. Or tell them to get off their asses, get a job. Make sure their kids get learn to read, learn how to do science and math and be responsible and not get aids, and not have children out of wedlock and not go to jail.
Shit aint easy, it never was it never will be.
[quote]NOAH's Toxic Enviroment vs. Individual Health highlights how "personal responsibility" or personal accountability does not make for (completely) healthy individuals in a non-healthy enviroment.[/quote]
NMaginate:
You forget to inject the magical concept of the CHOICE TO MOVE!!!
If you know that you are living in a house that has kryptonite in the corner of your living room......you have documents of how this kryptonite has harmed your ancestors, you AND YOU KNOW ALREADY THAT IT IS GOING TO HURT YOUR YET TO BE BORN CHILDREN... but you continue to live in that house do you blame the kryptonite or the individuals who have failed to protect their children by MOVING?
I wrote an article called "The Big Lie That The African American Lives". It centered upon the conflict in which Blacks CHOSE to remain in America and consume the resources that are delivered via our domestic economic and foreign policy yet chose to condemn these very polices, particularly when it comes to OIL.
The proof that I have that we are AMERICANS BY CHOICE is the fact that other Blacks, I call them "Funny Talking Melanated People" are CHOSING to come to this country, departing their homelands, in order to participate in the American way of life.
Just as they have departed their land of birth because they see it is in their long term best interests and in their family's interests to do so YOU HAVE THAT CHOICE TOO. Why do you continue to live in a society that is causing you great harm with it's "toxicity"?
You say "non-healthy" environment? Travel around to most large cities today. You will witness a CONSTRUCTION BOOM. Many of these toxic sites are being plowed under and rebuilt with new housing for middle income and upper income folks.
Many cities that were on the brink of bankrupcy are now seeing injections into their tax bases. Good for the poor and good for the middle class because now there is more money for everyone to benefit in the shared interests of the city.
I can't help that you all share the view of Francis Cress Welsing that we Blacks are some how banished to be "pit bulls' in the White man's pit. We appearently have no ability to shape our own environment. Instead when the White man puts us up for a "death match" with another faction from our own - we will tear each other's flesh until one is dead and the other one lives for a short while, later dying from infected wounds.
I think that what is lacking in the Black community is EFFECTIVE MANAGEMENT. We chose to PROTEST!!!
A protest speaks to those who are in power, asking or demanding that they change.
MANAGEMENT involves the thought that YOU ARE IN THE OPERATOR'S CHAIR. While you don't have full control of all of the variables that work against you, you do have control of your own resources and will use them strategically to SHAPE THE END THAT YOU WISH TO ACHIEVE.
I am sorry NMAGINATE - when I see Black folks in this country PURSUING THE MATERIALISTIC AMERICAN DREAM I find it hard to believe that YOU believe that WE ARE DOING ALL THAT WE NEED TO DO TO CHANGE OUR CONDITION.
Our condition will not fundementally change until a good number of Black Americans are off on our own, running an economy in which we take primary responsibility for running. You will see a PURGE of many of the "Ted Kennedy-like" flawed concepts that have been hoisted upon us that we accept SUSTENANCE without an equal exchange of something of value from us so that an EQUAL EXCHANGE has taken place. Secondly the stereo-typical "selfishness" of the Black Conservative will be purged because, being at the ground floor, everyone will be in the same boat and everyone will die if every oar is not manned in this boat.
FROM THIS A BLACK FUNCTIONAL CULTURE WILL BE CREATED FROM THE ASHES OF THE DYSFUNCTION OF TODAY.
The issue, again, is not the "toxic environment" but WHY YOU CHOOSE TO STAY AND BE POISONED?
Renaldo, you could have saved yourself the few minutes it took you to type that up by simply saying the old adage that originates with white folk "if you do not like America, get out or better yet go back to Africa".
The reason why many of our people do not move is because they can not afford to move or live anywhere else, the place they live is cheap because of the toxic nature of where they live. You know this and I know this. Then you return to that tired Co-Capitalist conspirator theory that has been thoroughly defeated and proven flawed. If we were to believe your CCC theory than it would mean that every man and woman that lives on the earth in a nation that is other than righteous and yet work, live and eat in that country is also benefiting from their own oppression. Imagine that, people who benefit from their own oppression, do you know how ridiculous that theory is?
it is a fundamentally false conclusion you draw when you try to say that we conclude that Black men and women are doing all that we need to do, there are many things we can and need to do, however these things does not excuse or remove the responsibility of this nation to correct those things that hamper Black life. Again Renaldo, Noah, Nmaginate and I, have managed to negotiate the potholes in the road except that we are now asking that the potholes be fixed while you sit on your high horse and say to those coming behind you, they should have to negotiate the potholes in the road as you did that should not be there in the first place. Why should we have to negotiate potholes while simultaneously being judged with the same measuring tool as those who do not have to negotiate potholes? We don't get extra credit for negotiating and dealing with realities that are not present in the lives of white folk. Why should we accept having to work harder for the same results? Our ancestors in the not so distant passed had a rule that they taught all of their children, and that is we had to work twice as hard as white folk to get anything, We are saying that rule is unacceptable and we will not accept working twice as hard for the same results or even worse for no results at all. Why should we have to move out of our neighborhoods and communities because toxic waste is being pumped into it? The right thing to do would be to stop the toxic waste from being pumped into our communities, that’s what white folk do when they find out that something harmful is being spread or put up in their communities.
[quote]Renaldo, you could have saved yourself the few minutes it took you to type that up by simply saying the old adage that originates with white folk "if you do not like America, get out or better yet go back to Africa".
[/quote]
It is your lack of perception that has you FAILING to note that I DID NOT SAY THIS.
I asked the question "WHY DO YOU CONTINUE TO BE A CO-CONSPIRATOR IN THE SYSTEM OF CAPITALISM THAT YOU HATE SO MUCH?"
This is FUNDEMENTALLY DIFFERENT.
Your version is totalitarian in nature as it attempts to squash opposing views.
What I said attempts to have you come face to face with the LIE that you have been living here in America as you are forced to OWN UP TO your own contributions to the system that you HATE.
How much money did you make for the Federal Government today Faheem?
I have no idea how much the government took from me today, but I can assure you if I could stop them from taking from me, I would.
The intersting thing about your belief as I noted in another thread in reponse to comments made by Louis I believe, it solidifies all our position in this nation as "Little Ikemans" as the Professor stated in regards to the men and women who died as a result of the planes being crashed into the towers in New York. So you agree with Bin Laden when he say every man and woman in America is a target, after all we are all guilty of benifiting from the illigal actions of this nation and paying taxes willing and unwillingly to support this country. Right!
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