May 19, 2005

Mental Chains of Race

Emancipation removed the physical chains, but socialization and acculturation under white domination has left the mental chains of bondage upon black people. Socialization and acculturation manifest via absorbing and emulating behavior, beliefs and ideologies of humans around us. This is how culture is transmitted and propagated. Most people falsely believe that they are not being conditioned or brainwashed. People believe that their thoughts and beliefs are from individual self cultivation and fruition. In truth, socialization and acculturation is simply another term for mind and behavior control. People are not forced to believe one thing or another, but rather are slowly conditioned into beliefs from repitition of suggestion.


The consequence of black folks living in a white dominated culture, one in which blacks were stripped of their original culture, is the transference of white beliefs and ideology to the conscious and subconscious of black people. Consequently, white negative views of black people transfer to blacks via socialization and acculturation through emulation. Ergo, blacks are conditioned to see and treat other blacks in the way that the dominant white culture sees and treats them. This phenomenon serves as mental chains that restrain blacks from elevating to their full potential. White racism creates a self fulfilling prophecy of black self destruction, as blacks internalize a negative self image, while white racism continues to serve as an external impediment.

The dominant and powerful culture can simply forward a suggestion or proposition and the suggestion or proposition will propagate through the society. Take for example the suggestion of a phenomenon called the “victim syndrome” which is a supposed psychosis rooted in the mind of individuals and not upon any reality. This syndrome has been suggested as the cause of black social and economic underperformance and has been franchised and sold to black folks, some of whom willfully propagate the product (submits Scared Negroes/black Republicans as exibit A to the jury). The victim syndrome presupposes that concept of "victim" is really an invalid due to the belief that every individual controls his or her own fate...and no one else does. Hence, if something negative befalls a person from an external source, the individual is still ultimately responsible for the outcome.

There is a recent scientific study that reveals that blacks see themselves just as negatively as white people do. This is what has inspired my commentary on this socialization and acculturation. Some of the studies finding are in quotes below.


African Americans and Caucasians viewing African American faces display extremely similar changes in the activity of brain structures that respond to emotional events, a new UCLA study finds.

The changes occur in the amygdala, a region of the brain that serves as an "alarm" to activate a cascade of other biological systems to protect the body in times of danger, said Matthew D. Lieberman, assistant professor of psychology at UCLA and lead author of the study.

Five out of eight African Americans ( 63 percent ) responded with significantly more amygdala activity when presented with expressionless photographs of African Americans than when they were shown expressionless photographs of Caucasians, Lieberman and his colleagues found. Seven of 11 Caucasians ( 64 percent ) in the study also responded with greater activity in the amygdala when viewing the African American photographs.

…"Many people of either race may not be happy to find out that a part of their brain involved in responding to potential threats responds more to African Americans than Caucasians," Lieberman said. "Even people who believe to their core that they do not have prejudices may still have negative associations that are not conscious."….

Why do African Americans have this amygdala response?

"One theory," Lieberman said, "is that people are likely to pick up the stereotypes prevalent in a society regardless of whether their family or community agrees with those stereotypes. Several social psychologists have found evidence for this view. From an early age, cultural views, media portrayals and even the body language of authority figures may train our brains, whether we consciously agree or not."

Previous research has shown that Caucasians show an increased amygdala response to African American photos to the extent that they hold nonconscious negative attitudes towards African Americans, Lieberman said
.

35 Comments:

At 10:18 AM, Blogger bombsoverbaghdad said...

Great post. Frederick Douglass talked a little about this phenomenon in his book, "Life and Times..."

On the day to day, it's so draining thinking about the state of black people in America. I literally sit at my desk thinking, "I wish WE had a place to call home, where we weren't the downtrodden, the poor or the outcasts. A place where we set our own culture and standards."

So draining. So very draining.

 
At 6:15 AM, Blogger LouisChauvin said...

The dominant and powerful culture can simply forward a suggestion or proposition and the suggestion or proposition will propagate through the society. Take for example the suggestion of a phenomenon called the “victim syndrome” which is a supposed psychosis rooted in the mind of individuals and not upon any reality. This syndrome has been suggested as the cause of black social and economic underperformance and has been franchised and sold to black folks, some of whom willfully propagate the product (submits Scared Negroes/black Republicans as exibit A to the jury). The victim syndrome presupposes that concept of "victim" is really an invalid due to the belief that every individual controls his or her own fate...and no one else does. Hence, if something negative befalls a person from an external source, the individual is still ultimately responsible for the outcome.

Brother Noah TA,
I agree with the first paragraph, where you take the blog after that, I am kind of skeptical of. (See above paragraph) Since you run a reoccurring theme on personal responsibility, I want to address what you published. Am I getting your argument on personal responsibility and, “The Victim Syndrome” confused? Let’s change the situation around. If a person is born white, is the white person responsible for benefiting on racism? Do the rules still apply? If so, how?

 
At 7:11 AM, Blogger Noah TA said...

Why would you be skeptical, given the research conclusions appended to my commentary? Are you skeptical of that studies conclusions too….or just my examples of how transference from the dominant culture seeps into black thinking and behavior? As far as I know, I do not have a recurring theme on personal responsibility. My recurring theme is that we live in an interdependent system, where outside forces can and do influence success and failure. The outside forces that have hindered black progress are not taking responsibility for handicapping blacks in the competition. The outside forces want blacks to take responsibility for problems blacks are not responsible for creating, to offset the responsibilities that they have abdicated and written off. Blacks would not have to be as responsible if society took responsibility for what it did to blacks. When blacks cannot overcome being responsible for the problems they create, PLUS, the problems that society created for them, blacks get blamed for both….and are seen as lazy and wanting something for nothing.

Yes, if a person is born white, the greatest probability is that society offers benefits from racism. Life is a competition….success in competition is about others failing, which elevates other over them. This society was constructed and evolved in such a way that they eliminated blacks as competition for whites for good opportunity. Consequently, the disproportionate rate of black poverty and unemployment, relative to whites, creates less competition and more opportunity for whites.

 
At 10:35 AM, Blogger LouisChauvin said...

Just because something makes logical sense does not mean that it is reasonable, or practical. I’m giving your blog what seems to me to be a common sense test. I am skeptical of the studies you have presented, and the conclusions drawn from them. If we can manufacture consent surely, we can manufacture statistics. I am just doubtful, but I CAN accept the research. Maybe it is just YOUR deductions I am skeptical about. I say that with reservation because, I think you have a talented ability to synthesize information and more importantly current events.

If we live in a system where outside forces influence success and failure? Who are the outside forces that hinder black progress? White people? Are they no more responsible for contributing to their success than blacks are responsible for contributing to their own failure? Pick any group that you have been so vehemently against…. Scared Negroes… Republicans… The Wicked President… The Government… I think it would be very difficult to put the blame on any particular person or group, let alone quantify an assigned value. Is it just to take away or add to a person based upon their, “fate” society? That sounds like Socialism to me. I guess we could continue with a system of elitism/capitalism.

I agree that black people are being held accountable for things outside of their control. Based upon this assumption I believe that sometimes black people have an unwarranted label. Likewise white people are given too much credit.

 
At 11:31 AM, Blogger Noah TA said...

If one employs a logical and valid premise and uses logical and valid inference derived/deduced from the premise, then it is extremely probable that one will produce valid conclusions from such premise and inference. Skepticism or disagreement may say more about those who are skeptical and disagreeing than is says about the target of ones skepticism/disagreement. A person who is without knowledge of a given truth can be in disagreement or skeptical of the given truth. Hence, skepticism and or lamented disagreement, in and of itself, offer no logical repudiation of a proposition. The question is what is your ability to repudiate the study or findings? Are you a scientist who understands the brain to a degree better than the researchers? Can you offer an explanation for black negative perception and treatment of one and other that is the antithesis and repudiation of what the researches concluded? Can you offer an explanation to the socioeconomic gaps that exist between blacks in whites in this nation that is not either rooted internally to blacks (genetics) or externally to unequal treatment by the dominant white culture and power structure?

People are quick to exonerate the influence of past and present white racism upon the contemporary condition of black folks. However, relative failure can only be the resultant of internal or external circumstance, barring the will of God. Thus, for one to exonerate the external (racism) is to indict the internal (which is the doctrine of black inferiority when applied to explaining the socioeconomic gaps between blacks and whites). So which of the binary options is it? Every human entity, whether it be an individual or collective grouping has problems which are of their own making. That is simply human nature as humans are not perfect. However, many people allude, but consciously avoid saying outright due to the obvious racial implications, that black folks are “Less Perfect” than everyone else or at least white folks. It alludes also that whites are “more perfect” than blacks. Both assumptions are the corollary of the other predicated upon the belief that blacks create more problems for themselves than other humans do and that is why blacks lag socioeconomically to others. What could cause such a degree of deviation from the human norm other than racial inferiority?

Of course, in this day and age where racism is a taboo and people are consciously tying not to appear racist to themselves or to others, few come out and call blacks inferior outright. Yet, the racist subconscious still dominates logical reasoning, which leads to individual’s argument alluding to or implying black inferiority without making the proclamation out right. For example, one of the traditional stereotypes of blacks is that they are lazy. Due to the taboo of racism and the fear of being seen as racist, most white folks will not out and out call black people lazy…which is a racist assumption because no one has meet the aggregate of black folks to qualify for making the claim. Yes, some black folks are lazy and so are some white folks…but many whites believe that laziness is more pronounced in black people than white people. Thus, they often will make a statement such as “if blacks work hard like everyone else….then they could….blah,blah,blah”. Obviously the premise here is the belief that blacks ARE NOT working hard like everyone else….in other words….LAZY.

I could go on…but I think you get my point.

 
At 12:53 PM, Blogger Faheem said...

The degree to which racism and external forces affect Black mobility can be ascertained by looking at the degree to which any pathology affect a people. Black men and women are no more susceptible to failure of any kind than anyone else, thus giving the same opportunity the same degree of access we will do as others. However, you put Black men and women in a racially charged situation, in a school with teachers that think less of us or on a job where the culture of the company is rooted in European culture you will see Black success stunted. No one will argue with the reality that Black men and women contribute to many of the problems we have but again the degree to which we contribute to our problems is no different than any one else, except that we pay a higher price for our contributions. This is easily seen and proven by pointing at the undeniable fact that whites use and sell more drugs than Black men and women but yet we are incarcerated for these crimes at rates that trump their incarcerations, so this particular pathology is not unique to us but we pay the heaviest price for it. WHY? It is the same across the board.

Black men and women can deal with any problem we have and has always addressed problems we have but the rich elitist and racist must find a way to explain the condition of the poor that excludes their actions from being partly responsible for the problems that plague Black folk and poor folk in general, thus the rich and elite blame the same pathologies that can be found in their communities and amongst themselves for the condition of the poor. And this goes back to what Noah is saying, either we are inferior and are affected more by the pathologies that run rampant amongst the poor and the rich\elite or there is something else at play here that has nothing to do with the lack of personal responsibility and morality amongst the poor.

 
At 8:18 AM, Blogger NmagiNATE said...

LOUIS~

It's really pretty simple. Instead of trying to use silly buzzwords like *Socialism* you can just deal with how you can make a thorough analysis of the TRUTH and HISTORY of American "race relations".

Noah made an excellent point a while ago by pointing out how the vast majority of American History was under its Most Racist WHITE SUPREMACY Regimes -- Slavery and Jim Crow APARTHEID Segregation.

You task is to explain how that time frame which has only been interrupted or rather transformed (into yet another, Third RACIST/White Supremacy Regime) has no effect on the present. It seems Noah pretty much captures the essence of your dissent -- i.e. your "skepticism" is lamented disagreement.

That is, you simply don't want to believe the demonstrated TRUTH is true because you don't like the implications of it. Apparently, you are having Cognitive Dissonance issues and/or issues with preferring, as they say, not to The Forest For The Trees.

As far as Manufactured Statistics... it's up to you to detail how that is in this case. The Manufactured Consent proposition we posed to you before was easily proven because of the fraudulent basis of your premise that "the people" completely control who and what they want out of a president, etc. That doesn't even begin to square with common sense. Something you cannot deny. But making careless statements without demonstrating how what you contend can be true is just that, careless.

Basically, you said a lot here which said nothing; simply because you would rather not believe what Noah has presented. This is a prime example:

"Just because something makes logical sense does not mean that it is reasonable, or practical."

See? You said that and didn't follow it up with anything to develop or forward your point. When and why isn't something logical reasonable? What exactly makes things "practical"?

Are you, perhaps, basing your premise on an idea of what's reasonable or practical from a perspective that's adverse to earnestly dealing with REALITY? Is your sense of common sense really only common to you and your ideology and/or "racial" outlook?

None of those questions or suspicions are answered by your comments here. All you have said is that you disagree without a substantive reason why you do.

 
At 1:22 PM, Blogger LouisChauvin said...

I gave you the benefit of the doubt by saying I could accept the results of the research. I understand how probability can reproduce an effect over and over thus making it the “most likely course”
Instead of focusing on the questions I have proposed you would rather attack the pointless. More than that I have even agreed with the fact that black people are getting unwarranted labels which does often result in a more severe consequence than their white counterparts.

To answer the question of whether or not I can repudiate the study or findings. NO, I can not. But I can question the intent of the research? Sure, Hence my questions. White people are no more responsible for their success than black people are responsible for their failures. Once black people make the determination of who is responsible for the conditions of blacks, then what?

If what Noah posts stands up to my questions, then it stands up, and “I” would accept it as true.

If my questions are unclear then they are unclear. I'm not perfect. However, if everyone on this site IS perfect. Please say so. I want to quit my dayjob.

 
At 7:54 PM, Blogger Faheem said...

“White people are no more responsible for their success than black people are responsible for their failures.”

This is the basic premise of your argument Louis and it is a flawed premise. You are trying to equate the end result of Black effort that end in failure to the end result of white folk effort that end in success. This equation is false because white success is not determined by or hindered by institutional racism and is trumpeted by a system of privilege, where as Black failure takes place within the system of white supremacy and white privilege which puts Black men and women at a disadvantage from the start.

So the truth is; white folk are far more responsible for the success of white folk than Black folk are for our failures to that extent that our failure take place within a system built and structured to favor white folk, how could you conclude anything other than that considering the structural racism that puts Black men and women at a disadvantage from the start and gives white folk an advantage from the start. The benefits afforded to white folk start as early as elementary school with the racist practice of tracking, teachers having low expectations for Black students, white children going to better and higher funded schools etc..

If you disagree with what I am saying, please lay out how your premise is true in the same way I have laid out how it is false.

 
At 11:19 AM, Blogger LouisChauvin said...

Faheem,

After reading and re-reading your posts I will have to cede in what you have stated about how white people are more responsible for their success than black people are responsible for their failures.

This cannot remain true at an individual level? There are too many variables to make that practical. If I were born white I could not have contributed to my own head start or advantage. Likewise if we accept that being born black puts a person at a natural disadvantage due to racism. Then, at the point of birth both persons are born without contributing to their situation. One person at a disadvantage and another at an advantage, and as we grow the variables increase.

We could discuss these variables at length. What benefit would it serve to go through every individual case? I would agree that to be a successful black person means to overcome more problems than white people. But, just like you asked me, does every white person deserve to suffer because of this? From the white people who are active in keeping black people down to the white people who choose to remain ignorant of the effects of racism. Are they contributing equally to the demise of black folk? I would usually give the Hell yeah! Nod in agreement. Line them up and don’t give em a cigarette. I just don’t see how bringing white people down, is going to ultimately help blacks. Maybe I should read your article on an eye for an eye when it comes to racism.

If you are saying that the white person’s contribution to racism is ultimately the most important contribution, please excuse my lack of understanding. I failed to see this point, and I will cede the rest of my argument.

It is from the tone of the article it appears that all white people are bad. From the discussion points of argument that made me believe you are teaching hate. If we ever met each other I would probably be right there saying the same things you are saying. In asking you the same questions I could get a better perception of how others might perceive me. Noah TA and Nmaginate you are some sharp men. Faheem you exude the wisdom of an elder.

Thanks for your patience. Regardless of our disagreements on this site, I still think you guys have a top notch site! Keep up the good work!

Louis

 
At 3:37 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I tend to agree with Louis Chauvin that scientific research is flawed. Anyone with a basic knowledge of scientific history – and its misuse – knows that it is as potentially biased, ideologically tainted and fundamentally flawed as anything else. Pseudo-scientific findings have been used to justify every act of brutality known to man. People use statistics, polls, case studies, and scientific findings to validate what they think they already know about an issue (or a people). This blog is no different. I would assume that white and black responses to African-Americans vary greatly depending on many factors (age, gender, sexuality, location, personal history, etc. etc.). Also, any such study that reduces its purview to two illusory and misleading ideological constructs (black and white) should be met with much skepticism. A much more complex and nuanced understanding of race would be necessary before endeavoring on such an inquiry. It seems clear that this study is meaningful to you (Noah) because it validates your ideological stance and world-view in regard to race in America. However, that is potentially a very dangerous misuse of what is most assuredly fallible information.

If I’m wrong, please correct me, but it appears that you (Noah) believe that slavery, segregation, institutionalized racism, colonialism, white supremacy, capitalism, black conservatives have proven to be the root cause of black dysfunction in the United States. Every dialogue on this blog seems to lead to this deduction as a means to close off discussion from dissenting opinion.

Dialogues on this blog tend to go like this:

1. A random issue is selected where there is some abuse being inflicted upon so-called black people (usually by the hands of a black conservative, white people [white supremacy], racism, capitalism etc). This issue is usually taken from some shaky website as opposed to a book. Because the issue is selected and presented as means to validate a particular world-view (Afrocentric, Black Nationalist, or some other racist, naïve position), it becomes a trap for those who disagree with its flawed reasoning.

2. A few people will write in and say how much they agree. Which, of course, is the reason for the subject being posted in the first place… call and response.

3. Someone with a dissenting view will post their opinion.

4. The original poster (and his lackeys) will defend the issue by telling the dissenter that they have presented precise, logically sound, unflappable, airtight, and intellectually impervious information.

5. At least one of the lackeys will then suggest that the dissenting individual’s writing looks like someone else’s (which of course is irrelevant), at which point the lacky will then call the person a coward, and somehow think this provides them with the basis to dismiss the dissenting comment.

6. After unsuccessful attempts to thwart the dissenting poster, über lackey NmagiNATE will appear, and will rant hysterically and incoherently – nitpicking and grossly misreading everything the dissenting party said. He will then say comically that they have said a lot without saying anything – which is really the pot calling the kettle black.

7. Lackey NmagiNATE will then begin saying ‘white supremacy/white supremacist society’ repeatedly and then he will find creative ways to call the dissenting individual stupid until they go away.

8. A new issue is posted and the unfortunate cycle continues…

So I ask, what is the point of having such a forum if there is no room for a meaningful polemic to take place? Everybody knows that black people get abused in this nation – that, of course, is no revelation. We all know the history and the present day realities, even if there are those that are unwilling to admit them. But now what? Your failure as intellectuals is your inability to discuss our plight with self-critical honesty. Now that we all agree on the causes of black pathology, we must turn inward, and direct our attention on how we as a people will take control of our own destinies and change our plight. Trumping dissenting opinion by flattening and oversimplifying common historical information accomplishes nothing. The primary question should be, “what are “we” going to do…?”


Yours truly,
Nat Turner Jones

 
At 4:38 PM, Blogger NmagiNATE said...

Nat Turner Jones...

You of all people know how you or no one else (hardly) ever come here for a dialogue. When their fraudulent points are dismissed with logic they, like Louis, will continue on as if their flawed reasoning shouldn't change their approach.

As he admitted:
"Just because something makes logical sense does not mean that it is reasonable, or practical."

In other words, he couldn't argue or debate the logic presented so he had to find another angle whereby he could subjectively input his views in order for them to even be relevant in his own mind.

Whenever you get done, whenever you get enough Testicular Fortitude... actually gear your comments to the topic and see where your logic leaves you.

Nat Turner Jones today... So other assorted ANON tomorrow. WOW!! Your comments really have reputable value, huh? lol

NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 
At 4:53 PM, Blogger NmagiNATE said...

It appears that you believe slavery, segregation, institutionalized racism, colonialism, white supremacy, capitalism, black conservatives have proven to be the root cause of black dysfunction in the United States. Every dialogue on this blog seems to lead to this deduction as a means to close off discussion from dissenting opinion.

PURELY DISHONEST and disingenuous statement. There is no way you can come away with that DEDUCTION you made if even looking at what NOAH said here in his response:

"My recurring theme is that we live in an interdependent system, where outside forces can and do influence success and failure. The outside forces that have hindered black progress are not taking responsibility for handicapping blacks in the competition. The outside forces want blacks to take responsibility for problems blacks are not responsible for creating, to offset the responsibilities that they have abdicated and written off. Blacks would not have to be as responsible if society took responsibility for what it did to blacks."

And really the truth about the matter is that "dissenting" views are "Closed Off" because of the weakness of the dissenters. Again, just like LOUIS here who after more or less admitting that NOAH's argument (whether it is or isn't) is logically sound went on as if there was a basis to respect his views as he (LOUIS) tried to maintain his already rebuffed line of reasoning.

Sadly enough... the "dissenters" just haven't been much of a match. Somehow they think they can insert their opinions and determine them to be the most sound without presenting their views in a sound and logical fashion.

Only weak people get "Closed Down" anyway. So any such "dissenters" really ought to re-consider their views if they get so easy discouraged. Either that or revamp their flawed assumptions that somehow just by them stating their opinions (without backing them up) that posters here are suppose to say, "Okay, you're right!" or "You make an excellent point!" when by and large the "dissenters" I've witness here can't even stand themselves up let alone Stand Their Own.

 
At 6:24 PM, Blogger Faheem said...

For someone to claim that we lack the self critical analysis necessary to discuss our plight, your lack of critical analysis of what is written on this Blog mean you are in good company. You must know Mr.Jones that simply chronicling the way a thing happen does not discredit it, it only shows us that you are one of our many readers who take exception to what we say but can not stop reading what we write. I am cool with that, stick around maybe one day we will meet your standard of self critical analysis. Your one of those individuals who like to say things that sounds good but it is as if you are really saying nothing, for instance your comment on race where you say; “A much more complex and nuanced understanding of race would be necessary before endeavoring on such an inquiry.” OHHHH KKKKKK.

Pointing out that a study means something to an individual because it supports their position does not take anything away from the study itself and simply tries to turn ones attention away from the fact that a study has been done independent of the person who agrees with it and yet still concluded much of what those who agree with study have been saying for sometime. You must know Mr.Jones that you are not the only one who feel and believe the way you do about this Blog, so we thank you for your comments about our Blog and welcome more comments like it, it only serves to make us better.

 
At 7:47 PM, Blogger NmagiNATE said...

Faheem,

The thing about research (surveys, studies, etc.)... careful researchers acknowledge the limits of their studies but the fact that all American racial/groups aren't study don't invalidate studies that only include Black/White. The latter, then, only reflect what? 75% - 80% + of American society?

Anyway, such a view would try to perpetrate IGNORANCE (i.e. contending that there are significant differences in the attitudes/opinions of other racial/ethnic groups) as if it is some untapped area of knowledge.

This piece from the BlackCommentator citing a book on THE OTHER "WHITE" PEOPLE (Hispanics and Asians) shows how Mr. Jones' objections may very well be sorely displaced.

http://blackcommentator.com/138/138_whiteness.html

As it says:
"...Yancey shows that despite their supposed cultural differences from the white majority, Latino/as and Asians Americans do not necessarily reject dominant culture and ideology when it comes to racial politics.

For example, Yancey shows that, for the most part, Latino/as and Asian Americans express dimensions of what he labels a white racial identity, which, according to the sociologist, (1) emphasizes individualism, (2)(a) color-blindness or (2)(b)an aversion to dealing with race, and (3) a belief in European cultural normativity. Analyzing survey data measuring respondents’ opinions of “racialized” issues such as affirmative action, prison spending, welfare, and talking about race, Yancey determines that, even when controlling for social and demographic characteristics, “there was no situation where the nonblack minority groups differed significantly in a direction opposite from that by which European Americans differed from African Americans.” In other words, black respondents were the only group to demonstrate a “distinct” worldview...


So, really... the thing about expressing ones perspective is to be clear about what is being said what is meant and what actually supports (logic, data, etc.) what is being said.

The suggestion that such a Black/White study is lacking because of the (not-so)curious absence of other racial/ethnic groups is one that doesn't effectively hold. Or I should say, as with a lot of things, there is information that contradicts that notion.

Now, let's see if the level and degree of "dissent" can be sustained...

 
At 10:15 PM, Blogger LouisChauvin said...

I was just about through with posting to this site until Nat Turner showed up, and Nmaginate wanted to continue name calling.

I can respect that this is your blog however, there is a difference between weakness and wisdom. I have posted nothing negative about you or your site.

Here is a site about practical reasoning.
http://evolutionaryethics.com/reason.htm

and another to address your issue on manufacturing statistics.
http://www.truthpizza.org/logic/stats.htm

By the way, my questions still stand. I did not post links intentionally, in an attempt to see how much you will rationalize your own thinking. If you can quantify the validity of your rants and heed some points you would take your site to the next level. Just my humble opinion.

Peace to you guys

 
At 5:22 AM, Blogger NmagiNATE said...

"If you can quantify the validity of your rants and heed some points you would take your site to the next level."


So here, again, someone who has had to admit, in this case, that NOAH's points were logically sound (and, by default, that his own were not) still wants to assert that somehow he has some "wisdom", etc.

Please!!

Weakness is an attribute not a name(calling). The very fact that you accord yourself with the attribute of "wisdom" and pretend that you're making suggestions or observations that will take this blog "to the next level" is so subjective and laughable.

If that were truly your motivation then you would actually be able to provide links or references to sources that are On The Next Level and you would be able to tell us exactly what that "level" consist of as it relates to things presented on this blog.

It's so nice of you to be so concerned about the direction of this one blog in the blogosphere. I'm sure FAHEEM and NOAH appreciate your compassion and consideration, Oh Great & Wise LouisChauvin. lol

The Master of the Common Sense Test... lmao

"To answer the question of whether or not I can repudiate the study or findings. NO, I can not."

"I'm not perfect. However, if everyone on this site IS perfect. Please say so."

And even after all those admissions and after your propositions have been addressed and shown for their errancy (or inaccuracy in terms of the positions forwarded here)... you still want to PRETEND you have some "WISDOM" to impart.

This is too damn funny... lmao!

 
At 5:33 AM, Blogger NmagiNATE said...

Oh and on the LOGIC vs. REASONING thingy, LOUIS... It's still up to you to illustrate how the reasoning here is flawed and how the logic fails (us).

That's exactly what I asked you before and indicated, precisely, by saying:

"All you have said is that you disagree without a substantive reason why you do."

That is to claim that the logic employed here (by Noah or whoever) is neither "practical" or "reasonable" its incumbent on you to go beyond making a simple (and simplistic) claim and demonstrate via your "WISDOM" how you feel that is the case.

So far you have not done so. And the things you have said, the silly rhetorical questions... have been summarily dismissed. At the very least you could come up with a counter-argument to the counter-arguments that followed (and debunked) your notion:

“White people are no more responsible for their success than black people are responsible for their failures.”

Seems to me both Noah and Faheem easily handled your assertion and exposed its flaws. But you, in all your wisdom, have aborted/abandoned your very own contention. Do you too recognize its invalidity?

 
At 6:31 AM, Blogger NmagiNATE said...

"It is from the tone of the article it appears that all white people are bad. From the discussion points of argument that made me believe you are teaching hate."

Another unsupported and unsubstantiatable comment. This is just another of your CLAIMS (perhaps the basis of your comments altogether) of which you know you can't back up with logic, reasoning or any practical application of what is said.

Where is the ALL WHITES = BAD clause, Louis??

Obviously, there isn't one otherwise you wouldn't make allusions to the "tone" (alone) you would be able to point to something substantive. You have not for obvious and revealing reasons.

From the BEFORE and AFTER Funny Factory:
Noah TA and Nmaginate you are some sharp men. Faheem you exude the wisdom of an elder.

Yes, that was before and now you're the one with the "wisdom"... lmao!

Too damn funny!

 
At 7:09 AM, Blogger Noah TA said...

Nat T, the scope of what most individuals can bare witness to as truth is akin to scope of a single atom in the universe. Consequently, I cannot bare witness to the validity of the research. However, what I can bare witness to is phenomenon such as “good hair bad hair”, historical light skin preference, and high rates of blacks killing blacks. There have even been test done on young girls that show a preference to associate more positive assumptions white dolls over black dolls.

Based upon my own ability at observation and pattern recognition, I came to the same conclusion as the research…way before the research. I am not defending the validity of the researcher’s methodology and objectivity. What I am defending is the researcher’s conclusions. The only other valid conclusion, in this binary choice between an internal and external cause, is that these negative phenomenon is rooted in black genetics (internal), when one excludes the external effect of racism and the dominant culture.

Another mischaracterization, Nat T, is your conclusion that I blame slavery, segregation, institutionalized racism, colonialism, white supremacy, capitalism; black conservatives have proven to be the root cause of black dysfunction in the United States. First, you need to exclude black conservatism from that list as black conservatives have no power and are simply a proxy tool for the other factors you mentioned. Secondly, I do not blame those other factors for the dysfunction of black people. Rather, I blame those factors for the socioeconomic gaps that exist between blacks and whites. There are dysfunctional blacks, whites, Hispanics and others. No racial group has a genetic predisposition to social and economic dysfunction and if one (you) are arguing that they do, then be clear about it. These racial gaps in socioeconomics are caused by nurture (under white supremacy) and not nature (black genetic predisposition).

In regards to Louise C, I do not think that anyone here is indicting the entire white population. What is true for the whole is not necessarily true of all its parts. We do not talk about white individuals on this blog, rather, we discuss the whole of white civilization and culture in the context of its interaction and effect upon black people. I know many fine and outstanding white individuals. Knowing such individuals, however, does not negate the effect and truism about the whole.

Most people think of racism as only being valid or true when there is a conscious intent to do harm based upon race. Thus, subconscious actions and behavior, as well as actions born out of ignorance or self interest, perpetrated by whites with negative effects upon blacks, are not considered racist. Well, the vast majority of white racism is rooted in ignorance and rational subconscious thoughts of black inferiority. To have an understanding of how the human mind works is to know the power and role of the subconscious in human behavior. People who are ignorant of the role and power of the subconscious mind think that only conscious intent controls human behavior and that if one is not consciously thinking something (such as I think blacks are inferior), that they do not believe such. The truth is that the power of the conscious to hide from the self the reality and truth of the subconscious…it’s called denial and manifest in cognitive dissonance.

I hope that clears this up, because this is not a HATE blog. I harbor no hatred for any humanity, including white humanity. I characterize this blog as a cause and effect blog in the context of racial dynamics. What caused the effects of black socioeconomic dislocation from whites? If every action (cause) produces a reaction (effect), then what can one conclude are the effects of 300 years of racial oppression and degradation upon black humanity by white humanity? We know that the effect of the present is the creation causes/actions in the past. All these things we know, yet, some want to dismiss the NATURAL LAWS and TRUTHS from current discourse about racial reality today. What they lack the courage to admit or intellect to realize is to dismiss these truths is to perpetuate the notion of black inferiority (and not past and present racism) as the root cause of black dislocation relative to whites.

The hate that people interpret and glean from this blog, as Nmaginate once astutely noted, is born from the hate that is generated by those who have an aversion to certain truths. Ergo, people hate to hear the truth about blacks in America and the ugly picture it paints about America, particularly the whole of white America (but not every white person). It burst the bubble of the fantasy that people try to create about America…what it is and how it arrived at its station.

 
At 9:41 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The unfortunate cycle continues, as scripted...

Nat Turner Jones

 
At 10:28 AM, Blogger NmagiNATE said...

And, of course, Mr. Jones has nothing of substance to add.

Again, the WEAKNESS OF DISSENTERS continues...

 
At 10:29 AM, Blogger Noah TA said...

Louise C, is winning the argument and telling the truth mutually exclusive? I would describe the back and forth on this forum between authors as attempts at defending truth. Thus, in order to defend truth, must not one win the argument? If one cannot logically and factually win a debate, then one must question the validity of their proposed and defended truth. However, they purposes or motives are not mutually exclusive.

I think that the usual defense of detractors to many of our points is that what we postulate are not ABSOLUTE truths, meaning that they are ubiquitously true. I believe that most debates are not between points of validity and invalidity or rather between absolute truths and absolute falsehoods, rather, between different degrees of truth. If someone says that inner city schools are failing to prepare students to compete on levels with suburban students, the exceptions to the rule does not prevent this statements validity, as it is the most dominant truth on average, but not an absolute truth.

What I find is that detractors usually attempt to break down our arguments by forwarding exceptions to the rule which they employ with the intent of offsetting or negating the dominant or general truth which is the causation of a phenomenon. This is disingenuous. It is tantamount to not characterizing slavery in America as whites enslaving blacks due to a rare few blacks in America who owned black slaves. Even though it is a truth, it is such a rare exception to the rule that its impact upon the whole of slavery was null. I find that a lot of people come on this blog and attack our validity based and motivation based upon our not giving much weight to the exceptions. This blog is about the dominant and general truths, not the exceptions to them, although we do acknowledge that exceptions do exist. We know that all white folks are not bad. If there were as many good white folks as bad white folks, then the force of one would have neutralized the force of the other in the oppression of black folks…but that did not happen for over 300 years.

 
At 12:03 PM, Blogger Noah TA said...

Nmaginate, the unfortunate cycle is the infinit loop of us presenting substance and detractors presenting non-substance based rebuttal.

 
At 12:53 PM, Blogger NmagiNATE said...

I know, NOAH. It is so boring.

I live for the day that their points & counterpoints match their signifying.

It's been a long time since I've had a good debate... since some would-be opponent has presented a substantive "dissent" to whatever I may think on a given issue/aspect.

Damn? Is that too much to ask for?

Make a point. Defend your point. Exchange counterpoints until an issue and, perhaps, even misunderstandings can be covered - explained.

I know it can't be that hard.

 
At 1:18 PM, Blogger Noah TA said...

Nmaginate, that is the difference between emotional rooted beliefs and opinion vs. rational rooted beliefs and opinions that you are noting. What happens is that some people make such a deep emotional investment in a belief or an opinion that they will continue to hold these beliefs and opinion even when they are not rationally and factually tenable to competing beliefs and opinions, if not truths. Many people’s reputation and self image are all wrapped up in their beliefs and opinions to the degree that they will never change then, no matter the counter evidence repudiating it. When one emotional investment is in the pursuit of truth and the acquiring of knowledge based upon truth, then there is no aversion to having a current belief or opinion altered or abandoned in favor of a greater truth. Most dissenters are not emotionally invested in the pursuit of truth as they are emotionally invested in a belief.

 
At 3:41 PM, Blogger NmagiNATE said...

NOAH,

I could careless whether someone changes their views or even admit their "wrong" - i.e. their opinion is off-based or not, as you say, the dominant truth.

All I want is for "dissenters" to clearly articulate their views -- the logical basis for why they hold the views they do or the reasoning, practical or otherwise, behind their beliefs.

So, when one of our Dissenting Friends makes an assertion/claim, I won't to know why they do on a number of levels. It seems too many can't seem to articulate those very easy things.

It's not like I'm asking for Ancient Trade Secrets or things they would not have had the chance to work out in their heads. I mean, I'm not asking for how would you change the world and get us from point A to point Z and ensure it would happen just like you propose. These are very simple questions about things they assert on whatever given aspect they voice their objections on.

 
At 8:28 AM, Blogger LouisChauvin said...

Since you have asked for logic. I need a little clarification on a few things. I'm sure you will tell me if I am interpreting your text wrong.

Noah said…
The consequence of black folks living in a white dominated culture, one in which blacks were stripped of their original culture, is the transference of white beliefs and ideology to the conscious and subconscious of black people. White negative views of black people transfer to blacks via socialization and acculturation through emulation.

Louis asks for clarification….
How much of the dominant views are actually negative? Are we assuming that a majority of white views are negative? How much of the negative views are transferred to black people consciously or subconsciously? The research presented does not support this.

Noah said…
Blacks are conditioned to see and treat other blacks in the way that the dominant white culture sees and treats them.

Louis asks for clarification….
Is the dominant culture white? Is the dominant culture Racist? Are we assuming that a majority of white views are negative? This is a vague assumption.

Noah said…
White racism creates a self fulfilling prophecy of black self destruction. As blacks internalize a negative self image, while white racism continues to serve as an external impediment.


Louis asks for clarification….
Is this statement saying white racism is external before or after blacks accept it? If blacks internalize something does it then become their responsibility?

Noah said…
Take for example the suggestion of a phenomenon called the “victim syndrome” which is a supposed psychosis rooted in the mind of individuals and not upon any reality.

Louis asks for clarification….
How can one be a victim if one does oneself harm? Can one victimize oneself? I suppose if you take it in the context that one has lost touch with reality. So is this a psychosis? Or is it personal responsibility?

Noah said…
The victim syndrome presupposes that concept of "victim" is really an invalid due to the belief that every individual controls his or her own fate...and no one else does. Hence, if something negative befalls a person from an external source, the individual is still ultimately responsible for the outcome.

Again is this an argument that one cannot control ones fate or is it an argument that external forces control the individual? Are black people crazy for internalizing white racism? This would make blacks victims however I didn’t get that from your statements.

Hence, if something negative befalls a person from an external source, the individual is still ultimately responsible for the outcome.

This is a completely invalid conclusion based upon the prior statements.

 
At 8:33 AM, Blogger LouisChauvin said...

The manure test

Becoming polarized, step by step
One side of an issue appeals to us.

We seek out facts to support this side.

We get most of our information from advocates of this side.

We feel superior for being on this side.

We like the people on our side better.

We trust the people on our side more.

We believe advocates for our side without analyzing them critically.

We distrust advocates for the other side.

We feel the people on the other side have undesirable traits that led them to their wrong opinions.

We jump on the slightest flaw in arguments made by the other side's proponents.

We find negative stereotypes about the other side very believable.

When our opponents make negative references to us, it is further evidence of their bad character.

Sources of information that treat us and our opponents almost equally must be biased, or they would recognize our superiority and the inferiority of our opponents.

Rather than enduring such unreliable sources or listening to our opponents' arguments directly, we learn of their misguided views and motives from our own trustworthy leaders.

When an opponent is found to have done something unethical, it is reprehensible, but typical of what we expect from the people we oppose.

When one of us is found to do something unethical it is not very important and possibly excusable if it aids our noble purposes.

We are good.

They are bad.

The superiority of our view is so obvious that our opponents could not possibly be sincere. They are deliberately promoting evil, self-serving policies.

They are our enemies, out to destroy us and our way of life!

People like them should be ridiculed, stripped of power, silenced, punished, and perhaps even destroyed!

 
At 8:56 AM, Blogger LouisChauvin said...

Noah,

Since I could not find the connection between your premises, research presented, and your conclusion. In the begining I was just asking you to fill in the gaps not for a debate or an argument.

 
At 11:26 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I suggest that you (and your lackey’s) review my eight-point description of dialogues on this forum and then review your responses. A striking pattern will emerge…

Dissenters don’t leave this forum because they have been out debated, or they cannot accept the ‘dominant truth’ (whatever that would be). They leave because this forum does not want or encourage debate… Despite your disingenuous claims to the contrary. You have no interest in intellectual discovery, or humanistic dialogue. Your mind has been made on every issue before you even post it. When you get backed into a corner you start pontificating about ‘nature laws’ (whatever that means?) and ‘truths,’ because you are so arrogant to believe that you actually possess such ‘truth’ to impart to others. People find this so insufferably boring, unpleasant, and anti-intellectual that they simply leave you to wallow in your own misery. The ridiculous thing is that you brag about pushing people away, as if you’re some kind of elevated, enlightened griot that can outwit all those who endeavor to cross you. That’s just narcissism – which is a sure sign of insecurity, fear and bad character. In a similar fashion, you brag about having been kicked off of other blogs for your tedious pathological [so-called] truth telling…. But that isn’t something to boast about. All such behavior represents is a failure to communicate. So sure you are in your ideological world-view, you fail to remember (if you ever knew) why such dialogue is important in the first place. Once the dialogue stops, all is lost! There is no victory… everybody loses.

Racism is a cancer in this country. The goal should be to bring all of humanity together through respectful, considerate, tolerant, patient, and gracious dialogue. Agreeing should not be the point. Building community through open discussion can be a recipe to mend the wounds inflicted by all of your ill-informed egotistical browbeating and playground bullying. You have the nerve to discuss why so-called black people are in their current state, without ever considering how your own behavior (and blog) contributes to the problem. This site represents all of the close-mindedness, bigotry, prejudice, and crass racial separatist essentialism that characterize much of African-American life today. That makes you no different than Jessie Peterson. Both of your ideological stances play right into the hands of white racism. Why you fail to see this, I don’t know?

You have many problems, intellectually speaking, but you insult us with your many generalizations. For example, when you say things like “the dominant culture” or “dominant white culture,” which are false Black Nationalist buzzwords that have long been regarded as retrograde and outmoded within intellectual culture. You think too locally. We now live in the era of multinational hyper-capitalism. Which means that power is dispersed by global flows of capital, goods and the exchange of labor. The dominant culture consists of a multi-racial, ethnic, religious cadre of wealthy elites. In the United Sates, minorities of all races are rapidly joining this elite class – which is already reconfiguring the face of power relations. As a result, silly fictitious terms like “black” and “white” are losing their currency (except amongst primitive racists, Afrocentrists, nationalists, and essentialists).

Those terms were created in the early 19th Century for the purpose of engendering economic divisions between the races. There is no such thing as black people and white people…. think about it! Limiting people to these terms is to trap them in their skins, thus prohibiting them from be anything beyond what that identity means ideologically. I know you don’t like it when people think less of you (hate you, fear you) just because of your appearance. Why are you doing the same to others? Racist whites called us black to oppress us. Why do we call ourselves something that was designed to trap us in our skins? There is no such thing as a pure race. Race and identity are not compulsory, they're fluid and incestuous. Learn your world history, and you’ll discover what I mean. Your lack of knowledge – and the essentialism it has created – plays into the hands of racists. I urge you to think about this.

What you are doing is not subversive, incendiary, uplifting or enlightening for black people. Embracing other races and eroding hate through love, compassion, and understanding is the only 'truly' revolutionary gesture. That’s why Malcolm was assassinated when he began to think of race and oppression globally – and beyond a local, hate-filled, black essentialist and reactionary point of view. He became dangerous when he started to embrace humanity and engage in international anti-racist directives. I know that you mean well, and that’s why I’m telling you these things. I can see the sadness, the hurt, the anger, and the frustration in all of your posts. You must rise above these feelings and work with others (including white people and black conservatives), and make this nation a better place. Stop thinking that your history makes you special. The ‘peculiar institution’ does not give you the right to bore us endlessly with your inferiority complex thinly veiled as race pride. Think about it…

All the best,
Nat Turner Jones

P.S. Louis Chauvin rocks!

 
At 12:20 PM, Blogger Faheem said...

The one thing that the Jones of the world, particular the internet world never consider as they try to paint a picture of us, they actually paint a picture of themselves. Jones on more than one occasion has written about name calling and arrogance from those of us on this Blog, but a closer look at his own writing reveals that he fail to see in his writing what he loves to point out in our writings. The difference is we don’t cover our name calling up in twenty words that seek to describe one thing; for instance Jones writes in his diatribe that Noah belief that he outwits those who come to this Blog and on other bogs is; “just narcissism – which is a sure sign of insecurity, fear and bad character.”. You see if we were to say something like this, we probably would have simply said, Jones is a scared to death (fear) weak (insecurity) Negro (bad character) who is in love with his own ugly image (narcissim) that he love to put on display. Of course after writing that we would have been said to be calling names, but throw in a few different words and rewrite it as Jones has and you give the appearance that you are not engaging in name calling.

This kind of name calling can be seen throughout Jones writing but truthfully it is of no consequences, we keep it moving and try to speak to the points being raised versus trying to stop any particular name calling. It is easy to label and try to break ones argument down as being a part of this form of thinking or this school of thought and than proceed to point out where and how or why that school of thought is wrong, outdated, outmoded and other nice words that essentially says, such thinking is wrong. Honestly, Jones has not said anything that require a rebuttal, maybe Noah will waste a few keystrokes on it, maybe Nmaginate will chime in after all that is part of the process on this Blog, right Jones.

One thing you should know Jones, you choose to read this Blog, we do not force you to come here but you can not help yourself. Thus if you are bored with our “endless inferiority complex” that is “thinly veiled in race pride,” you need to do nothing more than stop reading this Blog or do something insane like start your own Blog so that we can critique your writings as you love to do ours. I wonder can one have race pride without it being a inferiority complex in hiding.

Louis, I think Noah has said on more than one occasion that he does not speak in absolutes, and what is true for a part is not true for the whole but when something is dominant reality than we can generalize, you know like the saying Black folk love chicken, well I don’t eat chicken or any land animals but does that negate the generalization that Black folk like chicken. I am an exception to the general rule, not the rule

 
At 1:42 PM, Blogger Noah TA said...

That rebuttal of Nat was the presentation of form as substitute for the presentation of substance. Instead of using those 8 or so paragraphs in point counter-point repudiation or our or my propositions, he used the stage to focus on characterizing our/my motives or intents and to draw supposed parallels. It is nothing more than intellectual masturbation that serves as misdirection and obfuscation from the substance of my/our arguments.

Do not waste my time having me read about your interpretation and characterization of this blog, rather, enlighten me with the truth that contradicts my assertions. Present an anti-thesis to my own, that contains a premise inference and conclusion, based upon truth, which contradicts my/our thesis. Do not bore me/us with your characterization of this blog and its authors motives and intentions, which you have don’t any ability to bare witness too.

If you had the ability to present an anti-thesis to our thesis…you would have…..you did not because you could not. That means that either you are not very smart and cannot construct one, or the fact that there is no valid anti-thesis to truth…except for deceit. Given that reality, you just chose the path of obfuscation and misdirection. I/we are not impressed.

 
At 2:24 PM, Blogger Noah TA said...

How much of the dominant cultures views is negative? The answer is enough to offset and override the views that are positive (ie..blacks sure can jump high and run fast). The research never set out to prove the question that you asked. In fact, it was simply research that discovered or corroborated the fact that these different racial perceptions exist based upon analysis of brain analysis.

Yes the dominant culture is white and racist. Are we assuming that the majority of white’s views are racist? Yes we are, based upon effect if not intent. Are you suggesting that the majority of white’s views are not racist…and what is your evidence in support of such a generalization?

Intelligent people know that cause precedes effect and an action precedes reactions. Hence, white racism was and is an external cause the created an internal effect upon black people. An entities sphere of greatest influence is that of what it can directly control and take responsibility for. An entity cannot take responsibility for controlling external forces that manifest in internal effect and problems. An entity can strive to recover, but often an entity cannot recover fully on its own, to external inflicted damage, especially when the damage is still being inflicted.

To suggest that blacks are doing harm to themselves is a distinction without a difference is HUMANS do harm the themselves and black are part of the human race. To suggest that blacks have a greater genetic propensity to harm themselves, born from internal causes is it to suggest that blacks are genetically inferior. The victim syndrome of which I spoke was in the context of external victimization or what others do to blacks. Of course you knew this…but you simply wanted to obfuscate.

This is an argument that one cannot control ones fate. Few people want to die….but guess what? If humans were in true control of their fate…the manifestation of our life would be much different. There were numerous people who wanted to be president in 2004. However, regardless in ones belief in the ability to control ones fate, it was mathematically impossible that all could control there fate and become president. The laws of nature and mathematics simply preclude the human ability to control their own fate. We can influence our fate…but we have no absolute control over it…because there are to many interdependent variables in our lives that we do not control.

 
At 3:43 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Noah,

Before you respond again, first pause and calm yourself. Then I suggest that you closely read my last two posts. Think about it for a while, and then write back thoughtfully. I've noticed that when you get flustered you start rambling and do this strange pseudo-logic thing. Don't rush it my friend.

Your buddy,
Nat Turner Jones

 

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