September 27, 2004


Can there exist black empowerment without black political and economic control?

In light of the recent Detroit city council plan on creating an “Africa Town” zone in the city of Detroit, It is high time that I presented my “Mississippi Plan”. The goal of the Mississippi plan is to create a de facto zone in America, in the form of a State, whose population is to be overwhelmingly black, with an educational system, media and economy to cater to the specific needs and aspirations of African Americans. The reason such a plan is needed is due to the fact that our minority numbers prevents our ability to influence the “System” to be reflective and representative of black interest as apposed to that of the white majority interest, in a majority rule political construct.

Why Mississippi? The plan could manifest anywhere, but the fruition has greatest efficiency where a states population is relatively small and the black population is already a considerable percentage of the total population. Mississippi meets that criteria, with a population of around 3 million, nearly 40% of which is black. With an influx of a million or more blacks, blacks would easily become the plurality in the state, creating the likely hood of a constant black governor, as well as, constant black senators in congress. Both the former and the latter are rare occurrences, notwithstanding over 3 centuries in this land. Our interests are simply not represented at the highest level today, as is.

The key aspect of the Mississippi plan is to not just attract any black folk, but to attract pioneering black people who have technical and professional skill sets, as well as those with monetary capital to invest in business ventures. This would be the segment of the population that would be the Producers and owners who would create employment opportunities for the citizens of the state. There is plenty of such black folk fragmented around America, who could, in one way or another, play a vital role in such an exercise of black self empowerment.

Special trade and exchange relationship can be made with the continent of Africa, the Caribbean and other black nations in the buying and selling of the others goods and services. There are many potential benefits of blacks having control of states tax dollars as well as monies allotted to states from the federal government. Blacks could then use the money in a way that will serve the interest and thinking of black people and not others looking at black problems through the prism of racism and inferiority.

The idea would be that once blacks gain control of the state, politically, then we could start exercising a paradigm shift. Paramount to that shift would be gaining control of politics, media and the schools, thus allowing the ability to socially engineer cultural change, that would change behavior and attitudes. Currently, there exists a Eurocentric implicit realty in the politics, media and schools, which is not even recognized by most white people. Thus, it is hard for blacks, under their system, to properly engineer a healthy attitude and outlook in regards to education and behavior under a Eurocentric construct. Moreover, the construct created by whites simply is not working to uplift the poor black masses and we can never change that construct while it is under their control.

The thing about this plan is that there is nothing illegal about it. In order to create a black state, we simply use white aversion to live under black governance to our advantage. The more the state becomes black, the less that whites will want to stay there. The older whites will hold their ground because they have lived their whole lives there. That is fine, the plan does not force anyone to leave or stay, however, younger whites, via empirical evidence, will tend to move away when a place become too black. Mississippi is currently the state with the highest percentage black population already…making it the best choice to pull something like this off.


At 10:24 AM, Blogger Scott said...

I would suggest you look at
which was considering a similar thing for liberatians.

States by population:

Wyoming is only 501,242.
Note only 209,709 are registered.

So for about 150,000 people you should be able to take over the state infrastructure.

At 10:36 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Noah - It sounds as if you think it would be a good thing to have a state that is primarily black; i.e. segregated. I noted that you had another post below showings stats for segregated cities.

Is this accurate - that you do think segregation is superior to integration? If so - why?

Peg K

At 11:09 AM, Blogger Noah TA said...

I should be asking you that question Peg. Why is it that white folks benefited from centuries of segregation? Why is it that whites find benefit in not living under black political domination? Why is it that Minneapolis public schools are predominantly minority, when the city of Minneapolis is predominantly white? Obviously whites are finding benefits in not being under predominantly black influence, why cannot there be benefit to blacks from this. There are currently several states that are over 95% white. Why this is not considered a bad thing? Why is it when blacks find benefit from being around blacks, whites want to question it?

If you know anything about black people Scott, blacks would prefer to live in warmer climates, like Mississippi, as apposed to strange cold place like Wyoming, all other things being equal. Also, Mississippi has historical ties to black labor…it is the land that our labor built…via slavery and peonage. It is the land that many older retired blacks are going back to, after years of living and working up North. Wyoming has no natural affinity for African Americans. It is not likely that you could compel many blacks to go there.

At 11:14 AM, Blogger Noah TA said...

Also Peg K, If you interpret integration as whites learning to integrate into black domination and Afrocentric teachings and culture...then I am all for it. However, if you are defining integration as blacks integrating and assimilating into white domination and Eurocentric culture...than that is a whole differnt thing all together. Which one are you talking about...because really on one of those concepts exist today

At 2:00 PM, Blogger Scott said...

[If you know anything about black people Scott, blacks would prefer to live in warmer climates, like Mississippi ]

this is most racist shit you have ever said, you live in fucking twin cities, I had a friend who lived there a few years, and its fucking cold there.

At 2:05 PM, Blogger Noah TA said...

SO what if it is cold here...obviously everything else is not equal in places that are warmer....however, it is obvious that black migratory patterns has shifted back to the South. Blacks have primarily followed jobs and weather...that is why I stated that all other things being equal...blacks would prefer the warm is that racist...given that God designed the African phenotype for survival and effeciancy in warm weather...NOT COLD. That is not racist...that is NATURE at work and the forces of natural selection

At 10:23 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Most of the people with whom I associate are happy to have neighbors of different races. But they do hope that their neighbors are "good" neighbors.

What does this mean to them? It means that they maintain their homes, are thoughtful of others on the block ... not much more or less than that.

I don't know how old you are, Noah, but I moved to the Twin Cities in 1973 from Chicago. I remember being SHOCKED at how almost everyone was white and blonde and tall! Honestly - just going shopping or being out on the street; it seemed weird that there were so few ANY kind of people other than that.... I, with my dark brown hair and eyes, was considered "exotic" by many that I met.

My own preference is to be in a community where the people are of all kinds of backgrounds. When everyone is the same, your boundaries aren't stretched and you don't learn anything.

As long as blacks are only around 12 or 13% of the population (I believe that this is accurate), it is not likely to see many communities where whites are under "black rule" - I think that is how you referred to it. (Although I think that California is soon to be more minority population than white - if it hasn't happened already.)

I don't care about the race of those "in charge." I care about WHAT they do when they are in charge....

More to say - but too late now!

Peg K

At 10:24 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

P.S. I like cold weather.

I know. I'm weird.

Peg K

At 6:51 AM, Blogger Noah TA said...

Well…you’re a European…your genetic phenotype was designed, via evolution and natural selection, for colder climates. You body works more efficiently in the cold than does persons who phenotype was designed for a different climate.

The thing about it Peg…say that you are a decent white person. We all know that descent white folks exist (many whites seem to feel that they need to point this out to some black folks…save your breath). However, we all know that bad racist white folks exist also. The thing is…white folk like you who say they are decent and race neutral, fail to OFFSET the actions of whites who are racist. When you fail to offer and offsetting force…you preserve the effects of white racism upon the victims. If some whites are proactively working against blacks…then the real good and decent white folk are the ones who recognize this and thus are proactively working to favor blacks. There are nearly 6 whites for every one black. Thus, if only 1 in 6 whites are racist by intent or the effect of ignorance, they can map one to one with every black in America.

It is easy to say that you would not mind living under black majority governance, depending on what they do when they are in charge. That hides the point. In a representative form of democracy, the governance is supposed to represent the will of the majority. Given the different histories of blacks and whites in America…many things that are important to us might rub you the wrong way. However, that is simply part and parcel with the black collective in America. You cannot separate the two…thus, if you have an aversion to our interest…that is born from our history, then you have an aversion to black people too. Of course there are those conservative Negroes who ignore the collective needs and what created them and who cater to a white conservative ideology and interest. You could live under them…maybe. However, they are not a microcosm of the black community. They are aberrations.

At 11:50 AM, Blogger Scott said...

[Given the different histories of blacks and whites in America…many things that are important to us might rub you the wrong way. However, that is simply part and parcel with the black collective in America.]

Such as ? Example please.

I have lived in Harlem (most of my life), 99% white neighboorhoods in boston and now in an intergrated neighboorhood. Beside a a few more people sitting on the stoop in Harlem (which a good thing when elders and kid and not drug dealers) I have found people are pretty much the same wherever you go.

At 12:03 PM, Blogger Faheem said...

Scott, are you married to a Black woman? I find that most Negro-Cons not all but most marry white women because they compliment their thinking. I just can't see a Black woman married to a Black man ashamed of who he is and hides whom he is to appease other people.

Are you trully asking for examples of things Black men and womenfind important to us and our cause that rub white folk the wrong way? and you from Harlem?

At 12:25 PM, Blogger Scott said...

Yes, what do you think about our culture would make white people uncomfortable to live with us. Noah said there are things about how black people live that would bother white people. I disagree with this statement 100%.

All people want a nice safe neighboorhood for their children to play.

How are we different ?

At 1:07 PM, Blogger Noah TA said...

You the strangest talking brother from Harlem I ever read…you tryin to “act white”? LoL…You Betchaaaa!

Anyway, Scott is missing the point like a blind baseball player misses the pitch. The point is that when whites live under black governance, blacks get to decide what the white tax dollar will be spent on and it most likely will be something that is in the interest of Blacks…like “Africa Town”. They may vote to change the public school curriculum to be more Afrocentric to represent the interest of black heritage as opposed to that of Western white civilization.

The fact that you demonstrated the inability to see these differences, Scott, is troubling to the credibility of your self proclaimed blackness.

At 5:13 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Noah - you may either think I am absolutely wrong or not agree with me - but as far as I can tell, people are people. PERIOD.

Oh, I'm not denying that there is some sort of "black culture" that many blacks may share ... just like there are Jewish customs, or a similarity among those who live in an urban, crowded city community versus a small-town, rural one. But the mere fact that someone has white skin or black skin is really no CLEAR indicator as to what kind of music they like, what sort of home they want, nor any other specifics about them.

You say that I like cold weather because I am from a "European heritage." Well - my mom and dad came from that same heritage - but they live in Florida and cannot tolerate coming "up North!" And there are millions of other white folk who think just like mom & dad. (Not everyone is nutty like I am about the cold.)

As for what some whites do for blacks... when I was in college, I took a course in Black literature. I didn't do it FOR blacks - I did it FOR me. I love literature, and I wanted to see what blacks wrote.

Not surprisingly, I found that the works written by blacks, from the end of the Civil War on, was rich, beautiful and moving. Yes, some of the topics are ones that blacks would write about and not other races; blacks WERE the ones who were enslaved unjustly in this country! But the emotions, the caring, the pain - that is all HUMAN, not any specific color.

You are obviously a very smart and thoughtful person, Noah. I truly wish you could put half as much energy into something beyond this "black-white" obsession that seems to color so much of your life.... Just my opinion, but I think it would be far more productive for you.

Peg K

At 5:46 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

At 5:59 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

At 6:50 PM, Blogger Faheem said...

"You are obviously a very smart and thoughtful person, Noah. I truly wish you could put half as much energy into something beyond this "black-white" obsession that seems to color so much of your life.... Just my opinion, but I think it would be far more productive for you"

Yea Noah listen to Peg she knows best and what is good for you! This obsession of yours that color your life is not healthy. Peg what do you prescribe to get over such an obsession? (end sarcasm)

Peg it is interesting that you so arrogantly concluded that Noah has an obsession with "black and white" while all around you the problems that exist because of black and white flourish. The obsession this country and its structurally racist institutions have with black and white does not appear on your radar probably because you are not affected by it. Even more strange is you coming to "Black Introspection" and saying to one of the members he have an obsession with Black and white, maybe you should take some time and read over the top portion of the Blog. I wonder how often do you tell people who speak specifically to a particular issue or topic that they are obsessed with it. All the blogs on the web catering to the political shenanigans of Bush and Kerry how many have you visited and said to them they are obsessed. Probably none, because what they have to say does not raise your eyebrows like what you read on this Blog. Well Peg, this Blog is about Black introspection and that does not equate to “Black white obsession”

At 8:13 PM, Blogger Noah TA said...

Don’t patronize me Peg K. Its nice how you paid me a compliment to set me up for the put down…that I am wasting my time being obsessed with black and white. Funny, do you ever stop to think why you never consider people always talking about the politics of Left/right, Republican/democratic obsessed? You are one of those such persons. You spend most of your blog bytes focused on a dichotomy that you feel comfortable and without guilt in talking about. Yet, whey you I focus on a just as real and valid American dichotomy….RACE, you lament that I am obsessed and wasting my time and intelligence. What gives you the right to be obsessed with your convictions of political dichotomy, but want to deny me the conviction of focusing on the racial dichotomy? The political dichotomy is benign. How many times have you heard of the phenomenon of political flight? That is to say when have you heard about people on one political ideology moving out of the neighborhood because someone from another political ideology moved in? When was the last time that you heard of laws banning people from a political ideology from integrating with those of another political ideology? When where there documents written proclaiming that people of certain political ideologies were ¾ human. When were there laws banning people with a certain political ideology from voting? When did People from one political ideology go and enslave people of another political ideology in chattel slavery for centuries? I could go on and on Peg K, demonstrating to you that the time I spend focused on the effects of white racism and white supremacy is far more meritorious than the time you spend in the sport and game of political jousting. You are unequivocally unqualified to tell a descendant of 10 generations of racial slavery that they are wasting their time. I am honoring the spirits of my ancestors…I will not let their pain and lives be in vain. I will not “write Off” the unpaid debt that America has outstanding with its black people. I will not let white America define the socioeconomic gaps between blacks and whites to be the “internal” creation of blackness and not the effects of centuries of white racism and white supremacy. You go on obsessing in your little benign, meaningless political jousting between two ideologies that are way more alike than they are different, in that they both cater to the preservation of white interest, first and foremost. Until you live as the oppressed minority in a land…you are not qualified to tell me that I am obsessed with race. The truth is that you take to many things for granted as a white person…that you could never empathize or sympathize what it is like to be black in this nation.

At 9:14 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Noah - you're correct that I cannot know what it is like to be a black person in America. But I can listen to different black people tell me what their experiences and beliefs about it are - and they are not identical.

If you thought that I don't think that there are real issues to be discussed involving race, then either you misunderstood me or I did not express myself well. I certainly think that there are very important issues to discuss. Among them: unreasonable laws regarding drugs and unfair treatment of poor people and minorities when it comes to drug use. Poor treatment of black kids (often by black teachers) where they do not raise the bar high enough for these children. Role models that aren't great (you guys may like BET, but other than a few panel shows, I think that the videos are demeaning to just about everyone - but particularly women.)

Plenty of other issues, too.

And it IS important to discuss whether affirmative action really helps or harms blacks, and what kinds of activities can aid the black underclass.

I do not understand why you guys are so convinced that because I'm white, I must think this and that and not care about all sorts of things that you care about.

I used to do volunteer work in the children's area of cook county hospital. Lots of it very sad; many quite ill kids, and parents who had little money, so it was tough for them to be with the kids. Some kids who were IN the hospital because of parental abuse....

As I've said before, part of why I worked there was because I was so disgusted with racism and with racists. I wanted to do what I could to try to make things better. I'm only one person - but still, I can try to do something.

Of course this is YOUR BLOG and your site ... and if you don't want me to come here and give my opinions on things -then I will not.

I don't understand, though. It seems that virtually ALL that you discuss is through the prism of race. And at some point, you have to see other issues.

I have distant relatives who were stuck in ovens in Europe because of Hitler and his views. While (thank god) no one in my immediate family was killed, I do know a little about the effects of hate and being considered less than a person.

Slaves were valued. Jews were turned into lamp shades - or dust.

Not trying to do the "my ancestors suffered worse than yours" bit. They all suffered, terribly.

Only trying to say that at some point, we have to leave the past and deal with today.

And today is better, in many ways - though there are still roads to travel.

Peg K

At 9:44 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is what some people throughout the world say about Jews:

I am sorry for them that they are so ignorant.

This is the attitude that I take toward those who exhibit hate and ignorance about people of my background.

Peg K

At 10:33 PM, Blogger Faheem said...

Peg, The racism in your writings shines through as you claim race neutrality. Take for instance you mention of the poor treatment of Black children and then your little sly remark “often by black teachers”. The truth is white women dominate the American public school systems and the person they have the least in common with is the one that suffer the most under their authority “The Black male”. Black males are the most suspended, the most disciplined and the most expelled students in the public school system and we can not forget that we are the first to get sent to special education. However juxtapose this with Europe where white males dominate the school system, the biggest losers in the European school system is little European girls. They are the first to be put in special education as young Black males are here in America.

You may have not meant to do the “my ancestors suffered more than your ancestors” but you sure did a good job if it, so lets look more deep into what happen after our respective suffering. Jewish men and women had a homeland set up for them by the UN, this homeland was structurally empowered by the UN and other nations. Jewish men and women while despised in the world was able to hide their jewishness in order to assimilate into American culture and be just regular white folk, Then there is the three billion dollars given to the welfare rogue state of Israel each year.

Now juxtapose this with what happen to black men and women after the so-called end to chattel slavery in America. We were subjected to lynching, murder, castrations, denied education and then hit with Black codes and Jim Crow. Did I mention the continued rape of our women? After our civil rights movement we were not given a home land, the UN did not come to our aid and we damn sure do not receive three billion dollars a year and we suffered here in America. Then there is the Simon Weisenthal center set up in America before any museum was set up to honor the hellacaust that happen to Black men and women. We manage to get affirmative action and after 40 years of that, white folk thought their debt was paid. We have never got reparation and damn near every white person including Jewish men and women oppose reparations for our suffering. So please do not try to compare suffering when our suffering happened here in America and we have never been structurally empowered and white folk will fight to their death to prevent that, and apparently you agree with them as noted by your position on affirmative action,

You still do not get it do you, THIS IS BLACK INTROSPECTION. The views will be given through a race prism as views are offered through a political prism on political sites. You are welcomed to post here as you please but know that this is Black Introspection and that is how the views will be given.

One more thing please do not patronize us by posting sites to show the hatred Arabs have for Zionist in Israel. There are as many Jewish sites out there that take pride in the slaughter of Arabs. What we are talking about is right here in the good ole USA.

At 6:46 AM, Blogger Noah TA said...

Actually, I applaud you for coming to this Blog Peg K. Most conservative white folks only like the company of others of their same thinking. Also, I much prefer to converse with people I disagree with, than agree with, because I want my beliefs and conclusion to stand the test of opposition…so please do not think that we do not value your input.

Peg K, there are roughly 40 million black folks in America. You have listened to how many of them? What percentage? Is your sampling a microcosm representative of the totality and variation of black people in America? There is no way that you can understand black people from your unscientific sampling of black opinion. Of course not all black opinion is identical. We are not talking absolutism, rather, we are focusing on the general rule and the dominant truth of black people and we know of exceptions…thank you very much. Blacks vote over 90% democratic; yet, your distortion would hide that fact and make it seem like a 50/50 split. We don’t tend to focus on the exceptions to the rule here, but rather, the dominant rule.

Your penchant, Peg K, is to look at this issue of race through the prism of YOU. All I hear you talking about is I, I, I, I. Little that I have written was written about ME. I do not care what your opinion is of black people or that you see all people as simply people. The reason being is that what is true of you cannot say to be true of the 200 million white folks in America. We have been talking about the cumulative effects of the white collective, past and present, upon the black condition. Then, you keep interjecting talking about YOU and how YOU feel. Well Peg K, what is true of a part cannot be assumed to be true for the whole and what is true for the whole cannot be assumed true of component parts. Thus, save your personal feelings and stories for a different debate…because they have no weight in the collective argument of race.

Also, don’t insult me or my ancestors by bringing up comparisons with Jews or others. None of those points changes the validity of what has happened to black people. If you chose not to honor your ancestors…then that is your cultural or personal prerogative. Do not try to lesson or make seem inferior the African tradition of honoring the Ancestors spirits.

At 1:13 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Faheem-- I meant no "sly racist" barb at black teachers with my comment. The reason I highlighted that black teachers do this is to make the point that it is not strictly out of racism that people treat black children as if they aren't capable of "hitting the heights." (This is, of course, if you assume that the black teachers are not racist against black children.) Too many teachers do not expect enough from black children - irrespective of the race of those teachers.

As for my bringing up the history of my ancestors - I refuse to get into some contest of "my ancestors suffered more than yours." Let's just agree that both blacks and Jews have had terrible acts perpetrated to them over the centuries.

Noah, I thank you for appreciating that part of why I came to your site was to learn more about how you viewed the world - and why. Like I said - and it was not a backhanded compliment - you can tell from the way you write and analyze that you are a bright man. Just because the two of us may disagree on some issues doesn't mean that either of us isn't intelligent!

I, too, want to learn why other intelligent people think differently than I do about various issues. Doesn't expand my horizons to have those who think as I do say "uh huh, uh huh" over and over again.

You are correct when you say that I am only one white woman. (Though I might add that there are anti-semites who would deny that I am a white woman at all!)

Still, I do not think that I am alone in my thinking.

My neighborhood is upscale and mostly Republican, but everyone with whom I talk enjoys my black neighbors - because they are a nice family. My husband was raised by a racist father - now dead - and it was SO difficult for my husband to hear some of the disgusting comments that my father-in-law would make, he came close to severing ties.

What are the percentages of whites who view their black neighbors as I do - and what are the percentages of those who view blacks as separate? I don't know.

I do know, however, that the percentages of blacks who are middle class or better, who are doctors, attorneys, accountants, salespeople, actors, etc., etc. is significantly higher than it used to be. If our society were as racist today as it was 50 years ago, it would be difficult for these statistics to be as they are.

I didn't come here to insult either of you. I didn't come here to tell you that I'm right and you're wrong.

But I wanted to share my vision, which I think is a more positive one.

Peg K

At 1:45 PM, Blogger Noah TA said...

Saying that something is better than before is not saying much Peg K. No one here is arguing that things have not gotten better. Rather, we are arguing that things need much improvement STILL. The test of true character can only be measured under stress. Slavery, peonage and Jim Crow was all phenomenon rooted in economics and rationalized by race and white supremacy. Thus, one needs to understand the economic stresses upon whites that created the oppression of blacks. Those economic stresses no longer exist, at this point in time, to the degree that they existed in the past. The absence of these tresses is what has allowed, in my opinion, the increased tolerance of whites towards blacks, outside of what the laws force people to conform to.

Peg K, the reason it is important to study history and the history of racism is to better prepare for the future and present. When the economic stresses return to white America, the incentive for racial oppression of the perceived inferior race will return. As an example, take any state with economic problems, such as Michigan, where the competition for opportunities is more intense. In such places, you will find the highest levels of racism….because whites are stressed economically. Here in Minnesota, which generally carries an unemployment rate a percentage point or more below the national average, racial tolerance is better here. However, I am not under any false impression that the people here are some how morally superior to those in Michigan. There simply have not been the economic stresses or the large black population for the white residents to have to deal with.

I do not think that the vision here is positive or negative, optimistic or pessimistic. Rather, the view point here is simply that of realism. We simply take what is and have been. We simply look for cause and effect and actions and reactions. There is not half empty and half full subjective analysis, but, metrics that detail exactly how much liquid is in the container.

There is a nearly ubiquitous tendency among whites to show that they are not racist. Even though nearly no white person admits or sees themselves as racist today, most lament that white racism does exist. That does not reconcile mathematically. Just remember that we are not talking about our persona experiences here. Thus, do not counter with your personal experience, because we are analyzing the collectives and not individuals.

At 8:21 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Perhaps your last comments highlight one of the major differences in our viewpoints, Noah.

You seem to view race and racism as a matter of "statistics" and "collectives."

To me, you stop racism one person at a time. You educate people, you familiarize people with customs and tastes a little varied from their own - and eventually, people learn to get along.

Racism begins and ends with individuals. After all - they are the only ones who can be racists - or people who accept others for their deeds.

At 5:09 AM, Blogger Noah TA said...

No...I think you are wrong. Racism has always been about how individuals feel about another GROUP. Many people who are racist against the group can and do grant exceptions to individuals. It has been that way for centuries. Thus, the fact that a person can like a black person does not therefore mean that the like black a group...or do not think to be irresponsible or lazy as a group, notwithstanding the exception to the rule of some blacks they know.

At 6:29 AM, Blogger Noah TA said...

Peg K, whether you admit it or not, people have a profile in the head of people that are perceived as dangerous or a threat to them. It may be the way a person dresses, the way a person facial expressions appear, the context of the situation (late night alley or dark place), race, or all these things working together sets of a subconscious trigger of danger. This is because the mind or subconscious sets up “profiles” to promote your survival. These profiles are the summation of your life’s sensory inputs. Those sensory inputs in regards to people are GROUP judgment.

Now, if by chance you happen to be in North Minneapolis or Broadway Ave at 1:00 am in the morning with a flat tire, when about 5 young adult or teenage blacks start to approach you, your subconscious is not going to be talking what your conscious is talking on this blog. Your subconscious is going to promote the racing of your heart, the heightening of your alert senses and the increased blood flow. In short, your subconscious is going to make you FEAR these young brothers. Despite the fact that you may want to see everyone as individuals with a clean slate, as I said before, the test of true self and character only manifest under stress.

There is a lot I am sure that you would like to believe is true about yourself, but until you are stress tested, you might simply be fooling yourself.

At 11:30 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry, Noah. I have already been tested.

If you haven't figured it out already, I'm a bit of a weird character. More than once, I have been in so-called very bad neighborhoods - and yes, at night. Whether stupid or just an optimist, I'm of the opinion that most of the time, if you treat people well, that's what you'll get in return.

I HAVE been in the position of being surrounded by about 6 black guys late at night. (One time was about 20 years ago in downtown Minneapolis, while leaving a bridge tournament around midnight.)

The truth is that while I wasn't scared, I hoped that these were nice guys... and, as it turned out, they were. They talked to me a little, and I conversed back. I walked to my car, about a block away, and one of the guys opened the door for me. I got in, said "bye" and drove home. Finis.

Perhaps I am crazy, but most people seem to do right by you if that's what you do to them. Most of my experience (though I admit, not all) proves this to be the case - yep, even with black guys.

At 12:32 PM, Blogger Noah TA said...

So are you telling me that you have no “profile” of a threatening situation, which you thus use to size up your situation? That defies human nature. There is something in your life that you fear and if you have never been victimized by it, it serves as a defense mechanism to protect you. What you are telling me is that you have no way of determining when you are in a danger and when not and that you have been unaffected by the subliminal and direct programming of criminal situations and profiles in your lifetime.

What I am trying to get at is to demonstrate that the way you feel about an individual can be different from the way you feel about the group that that individual is a part of. Maybe you have no fear of black relative to whites…I don’t know. I have to accept your word on that. However, maybe it is Liberal vs Conservative. The way you feel about liberals in general, may be quite different than the way you feel about a particular person who is liberal. What I am attempting to demonstrate is that the way you feel about individuals cannot be used as proof that you do not feel that way about the group.

If you subscribe to the notion that people are poor partly because they do not work as hard as people who are rich, then that implies that the poor are lazy, in your opinion, relative to the rich. Thus, given that the black poverty rate is 3 times that of whites, then one is concluding also that blacks are 3 times lazier than whites, which is racist. Now, you might know some hard working black folks personally and you might say that you do not believe that blacks are any lazier than whites, buy your beliefs contradict this. As a conservative, which you are many of your beliefs about why people are poor or struggling, have a mapping to black inferiority when you break it down racially. Now, you might choose, like so many other conservatives do, to try to the issue of race, thus hiding what your beliefs manifest in regards to race…which is inferiority. This is why I am saying that how you feel about individuals can mask how your really feel about the group they belong to.

At 12:39 PM, Blogger Noah TA said...

That was rather convoluted above…my point is that your beliefs and ideologies as a conservative often create a stereotype about the poor, which then manifest into racial stereotypes, due to black poverty being three times the rate of white poverty. The fact that you know some black people who you feel are exceptions to the rule of this stereotype, fails to change the beliefs about the whole, which serves as the foundation of your ideological beliefs.

At 3:29 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Noah - you sure seem to assume an awful lot about my biases, prejudices and assumptions with really no evidence for same!

First of all - you continue to call me a conservative. While I freely admit that on SOME subjects I do adhere to what would be considered "conservative" viewpoints - on some others, I certainly do not. For instance, I think that gays should be allowed to have civil contracts with their partners, if not marriage, I'm in favor of vastly reducing the penalties for what now are illegal drugs, I'm against the death penalty (in part because it is applied unfairly to minorities) and I'm much in favor of cutting "welfare" for corporations. This all sound like a conservative to you? I do support it all.

Also - I have many friends who happen to be liberals. Do I agree with them on a lot of their political beliefs? Nope. But I still think that they are giving, caring, interesting people - and that's why I am friends with them.

YOU seem to think that if I see a group of several black guys, I should be scared. Why? Why does it seem irrational to you if I am not? Should I be scared if I see a group of several white guys - or asian guys? Perhaps I SHOULD be scared ... but my experience has told me that I'm doing OK giving people the benefit of the doubt. (Now, if anyone happened to be brandishing a weapon, THAT would be a different story. I may be Pollyanish, but I'm not bonkers.)

In a short time, I'm heading out to the 'hood (North Minneapolis, not very far at all from where you told me earlier I would find my heart beating wildly) to some friends' home where we will watch the debates tonight. Yep, most of the neighbors are black - but - so what?

As for assuming I have all sorts of racist views of the poor - let me assure you that I do not.

Are some people poor because they are lazy? Yep. But I think that a lot of peopel are poor because they either never learned how to NOT be poor, or they never were taught what habits were necessary to achieve a middle class lifestyle, or they had crummy parents and a lousy education.

Many of them are poor because they were never taught to believe in themselves.

And a certain portion are poor because they are addicted to substances, and that is a hell that makes life difficult for anyone, no matter their station or race in life.

Well - gotta run. Heading out for North Minneapolis - where I expect to find people who are as nice - and as nasty - as the ones who live down the block from me.

Peg K

At 6:54 AM, Blogger Noah TA said...

I apologize. I should have never gone down the path of getting into a conversation about you as an individual and what your thoughts are. Not because it was not germane to make my points, but because I have no way of knowing what is true or false. The fact is that just because you say something is not true does not mean that you are being truthful, given the human proclivity to lie. I guess you can then say that you do not lie or never lied…which again I have no way of proving or disproving. Moreover, I realize that many people with alcohol or other addictions can and do convince themselves that they do not have a problem. Thus, if you ask many people who meets the objective criteria of addiction, if they are an alcoholic, they will tell you no. That is because they do not want to face up the ramifications of the truth. In the same way, just because you say that you have no more fear of any human profile over another, does not mean that you do not, even if you think you do not. Obviously a person will resist seeing themselves in a negative light, even if and when the light shines true. In light of this, nothing can be gained from a conversation centered on what you think or believe…

At 10:32 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Noah - I DO have fears, and some of them are irrational, I admit! But, if I have fears of black people, then I have never manifested them.

Actually, I can tell you about one incident where that is NOT true. Let me qualify.

As a young girl (maybe 10 or 11) I had taken the elevated in Chicago to go downtown with my best friend. Her dad told us what exit to use once we hit the Loop - but he told us the name of the wrong street. As it turned out, there WAS no exit by that name.

So, we sat on the "L," waiting and waiting for our exit.

After a while, it turned out that we were the only white people on the train! We knew we had missed downtown, and we realized that the only thing to do was to get off and take a train in the opposite direction.

The spot at which we got off was near Comisky Park (White Sox field), and again, we knew that this was a heavily black area. I don't know for sure about my friend - but I do recall that I was a little afraid. Would anyone do or say something to two young white girls in this neighborhood?

No one did do anything to us. Another train going North came by, we got on, and had a day on the town downtown.

I don't know, Noah. Maybe the fact that nothing DID happen to us was the start of me being trusting of blacks and being in a black community.

I do know, however, that it does feel odd to be the ONLY one of your "sort" in an environment. So, when blacks say that they feel odd being the ONLY blacks in a neighborhood, though I don't know exactly what that feels like, I can guess a little bit.

I appreciate your telling me that you can't know for sure all sorts of details about me, Noah. Thanks.

At 10:41 AM, Blogger Noah TA said...

Do you ever think of yourself to be rather self centered Peg K? I mean, you always find time to spend more time talking about you than issues and the big picture. I am not saying that it is good or bad...just not germane to the big picture of issues that we try and tackle on this blog. It is easy to "project" an assumption that what is true of us as individual is therefore true of the whole. That is all that an individual really has to go by, other than what others tell them. However, every life and experience is unique and is not a cookie cutter template for understand the world and people outside of your own experiences

At 3:31 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey, Noah. Please make up your mind.

First you criticize me because I am discussing black issues when I am not a black person, and you seem to assume that I have all sorts of prejudices about black people because I am white. (Correct me if I am wrong - but this does seem to me what you have been saying.)

So, I DO know about my OWN experiences - and then I express those to you, to either confirm or deny what you may think about me as a person.

But you are critical of THAT as being self-centered!

Sorry. I don't know about other people, but I can only have my own views and my own experiences. I can relate the experiences and views of others - but cannot have them firsthand.

I like hearing about people's individual experiences. Statistics are just a bunch of numbers, and frequently it is difficult to know what conclusions to draw from numbers.

People's stories can speak volumes.

At 5:45 PM, Blogger Noah TA said...

Peg K, go back and check the title of this essay...your personal expereinces was never germane to the topic. Every time we posted essay that you contributed to the commments, it was always about you. THat is why I brought up the subject of you. Were are talking about the macro and you keep bringing up the micro about you and your feelings. I do not know if you are racist or not, but whether you are or not is simply akin to a drop in the ocean.

You keep bringing up statistics. I have posted some point in time statistics on this blog for FYI only. THe substance of what we talk about on this blog has to do with history, cause and effect, actions and reactions and the present being the creation of the past...all in a macro analysis based upon race. Thus, the substance of what we talk about is not point in time statistic, but rathr, the temporal continuum.

At 10:18 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Noah - I may use the word "I" more than you do - but your "I" is implied. What I mean by this is that you make all sorts of assertions which I believe can be disputed with other facts.

Your claims of widespread white racism (in 2004 - not 1962 or even 1980) don't hold water. Many of your economic theories simply are incorrect - and example after example will show this to be the case.

I use "I" really out of modesty; I think I am correct about certain statements and conclusions and facts. But if someone can provide data that seems to contradict what I thought or believe - I'm happy to hear it and examine it. I do NOT think that I am the final repository of knowledge or truth!!

Your world, Noah, seems filled with fear and hate and people out to get black people and whites trying to maintain their privilege - etc., etc., etc.

That is not my world - and it is not the world of a great many people with whom I am familiar - of all races.

I wish that your world could be my world. It seems a much more pleasant place, with far more opportunities for everyone.

Peg K

At 6:36 AM, Blogger Noah TA said...

You are being disingenuous Peg K. Your “world”, which includes you and the people you know, of different races, cannot serve as a valid contradiction to the statements I make about 290 million Americans. I have said this repeatedly….and you KNOW that it is true. The majority of blacks do not live in places like Minnesota. The plurality of blacks live in the Southern USA, which still has much overt racism. Also, a good percentage of blacks are in large Northern Metropolitan areas, such as Detroit, Chicago, New York, Philadelphia and others characterized by hyper degrees of segregation. Thus, the world you live in is in NO WAY a microcosm of a sample set that could be extrapolated to be true for the whole. Your world is simply your world…nothing more and nothing less can be drawn from it. Hence, it has no place in the conversation about the whole. You cannot use your “I” to contradict an analysis of the “we”.

Furthermore, you stated on your own blog that you do not know much about economics…yet, you tell me what I have said about economics is simply wrong. How can someone who does not know what is right, be so sure about what is wrong? I have more than a cursory understanding of Economics, while you admitted to having none, other than the economics involved in your little world or Real Estate.

Also, do not forget that you paid me the compliment of calling me intelligent…now how could you come to that conclusion If I am as wrong all the time? If someone is wrong, as you say that I am, I certainly do not deserve the characterization of intelligent. I would expect a characterization such as Scott, who frequently calls me an idiot. Neither of your characterizations hold any weight with me. Whether or not I am intelligent or any Idiot, as long as I am speaking the truth…that’s all that matters to me. If I am not speaking what is true, then please feel free to present evidence of the truth that contradicts it. For if you do not have the answer in regards to what is right, you cannot for sure know what is wrong.

Like most white people, you feel compelled to defend the white race against its history and present. Thus, this is why you like to talk about yourself…to show me that you are not a racist white person and thus, vindicating the whole white race from this scarlet letter. However, you are not “white people” Peg K, you are simply a “white person”.

At 10:02 AM, Blogger abw said...

There in lies the problem of anonymous post. The harm in alot of racism today does not stem from individuals it stems from the group. It is collective. Too many people with conservative or race neutral leanings think that you can solve the problems of the group by dealing with just individuals. Most structural problems will only be solved effectively if they are solved at a structural level. Not a few individuals doing a few things here an their with no structural plan in place. Also, I do not doubt our progress but that does not overlook the things that still need to be done. Anyway, I find it funny that conservative blacks love to chastise blacks about personal responsibility and alot of other drivel but love to cop out of doing this, confronting their complicity for racism, by using the " you have more affluent people than you ever had" CARD or "other blacks have it worse other places" CARD. It is nothing personal and you could be more offensive, but there are things you overlook Peg K.


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