Days late and dollars short
This country has always been days late and dollars short in regards to being accountable and responsible for its transgressions and crimes against black humanity. Yesterday, the Senate, in an egregious manifestation of belatedness, formerly apologized for not passing anti lynching legislation during the era of “strange fruit”(Billy Holiday.. Southern trees bear strange fruit,Blood on the leaves and blood at the root...) where some 5,000 lynching took place. However, there has yet to be an apology for slavery or facilitating the era of “black codes” known more popular as “Jim Crow”.
It is said that intelligence can be measured by measuring ones ability at pattern recognition. However, I do not think that it requires a high IQ to recognize the pattern that is taking place in America, in dealing with its transgressions. America is hiding behind the laws it created, to protect America and contemporary Americans from being accountable and responsible for the nations past crimes. Even though most non-wicked people can and do see slavery as a crime against humanity, the fact that it was legal meant there is no bases in law for recrimination. How convenient. When a nation wants to benefit from amoral and criminal behavior, it simply legalizes such acts. When it reaps its rewards and benefits, it then outlaws the practice, leaving its past legacy with no legal means to seek award and justice from the courts for victims.
The statute of limitations is another “law” or scheme used by the “system”, to essentially protect white Americans from liabilities created by whites in the past. The goal is to filter, from the inheritance of the past, all liabilities related to race, while allowing the assets from the past to manifest to their benefit. Inheritance law does not usually work that way, however. When on inherits an estate or citizenship, they inherit the assets and liabilities of the estate or citizenship, as a package deal, regardless of their involvement in the creation of assets and liabilities. Obviously in a representative republic where Caucasians represent over 70 percent of the electorate, their interest manifest in government position and policy, and eventually law. The hypocrisy is so glaring that it is blinding.
It is obvious as to why congress is mum about the era of Apartheid known as Jim Crow. The pattern to recognize is that there are too many black folks stunted and oppressed by this era still breathing. Americans only like to talk about and admit how bad and wrong certain periods and practices were, when all the victims are dead and gone. That way, they can express their heart felt sympathy about a terrible injustice, while at the same time feeling safe that their tax dollars or white privilege will not be sacrificed in compensation to victims. They, Caucasians, will ensure that before any such empathy or sympathy takes place on their part, the victims must be deceased and the statutes of limitations have expired.
Of course, one must ask the question of why now? Why, after all these years, has the senate decided to apologize? Aside from the pattern motive mentioned above and feeling “safe” from reparations, its simply more politricking. It’s a symbolic meaningless gesture by a republican dominated senate to win favor with black voters, who they will more and more be dependant upon if they are to be a viable party in the future. It is no secret that the republicans have ramped up efforts to court the black vote. However, their reaching out manifest in symbolic grand standing and playing on assumed black credulous or lack of intelligence in regard to their polices. A good example is how the president tried to sell his Social Security private accounts plan to blacks by noting that blacks would benefit because they die sooner. Instead of focusing on policy that would create the condition for blacks to live as long as whites, he creates a conflict of interest in blacks living longer.
In conclusion, for this descendant of African slaves, Apartheid Jim Crow, share cropper lineage, the Senate can take their hollow apology and shove it up the arse of every white American who accepts the benefits of the past, while not taking responsibility for liabilities from the past. Such people should renounce their citizenship, which affords them the freedoms, assets and owners equity of past generations, while holding them also accountable for liabilities. It’s a package deal and for those who are not willing to accept the package…they need to find another deal in the form of citizenship in another country.
posted by Noah TA @ 6/14/2005 10:04:00 AM
49 comments
49 Comments:
Despite being a strident Leftist, I have to say that I’m wholeheartedly against reparations. I think it would prove to be one of the most detrimental things for black Americans. Furthermore, I don’t think that anything worth having can be given. We must rid ourselves of all forms of government dependency. I don’t want the government’s worthless apologies or money. In fact, they don’t have enough of either to right the wrongs of the past – it’s been done. We have to “take” what we need – by any means necessary!
Renu
Besides not being the only Black person who is against reparations, why should we care that you are wholeheartedly against it? You think your opposition to it, will change our position?
GOLLY Faheem, I thought I was the only one…!
I assume that because you (and Noah) created a public forum, you want people to respond to what you’re saying. Otherwise, I think you guys would just complain and gripe to each other over the telephone. I simply responded to Noah’s post. I have no interest in changing your views my friend. Frankly, I don’t even know why you would say something like that. Why have a public forum, if you don’t care what others have to say? Obviously, my comment is meaningless to you because it’s in opposition to your own? Of course, I knew this already…
Anyway, what does your little diatribe have to do with what Noah posted… do you have anything to contribute? I’m sure you agree with everything Noah said, but if you have any meaningful insights, I would love to hear them.
You seem grumpy… are you trying to pick a fight with me?
Renu
Reparations need not increase black dependency on the reliable government and can actually increase black American competiveness. Without increasing anti-black backlash.
Possibilites include an decendant of slaves GI Bill.
Lower tax rates if not tax free for as long our ancestors were slaves.
Land grants.
Scott,
I’m not concerned with anti-black backlash; we experience that already. But how is that (what you propose) "not" dependency? I’m not suggesting that you’re wrong, I’m just curious as to how you conceive of reparations beyond dependence.
People always call for reparations because it makes them feel empowered; like they’re “talking back to the man” or something! But they never have a plan… You seem to have some interesting ideas – please elaborate!
Renu
We have to “take” what we need – by any means necessary!
Okay! Maybe you can talk some language I can get with. What's on your "TAKE" List?
How do you propose to Confront and Challenge... in order to "take"??
Why have a public forum, if you don’t care what others have to say?
Well, the truth is the shit gets pretty jaded when little bitches like yourself say all manner of bullshit trying to impress their views (your views) as if somebody actually gives a shit what a little bitch thinks.
That is to say, when people like you have this tendency to not stay on the actual subject -- instead choosing to focus on STYLE as opposed to SUBSTANCE -- and act like this blog is suppose to cater to your(their) sensibilities and preferred aesthetics then it is YOUR and yours who render yourselves IRRELEVANT. So, for those who can actually offer untainted (i.e. non-petty) views then their views, no doubt, are welcomed but somehow you see to not understand what a blog is.
While your comments are invited that doesn't correlate to anyone actually caring what you... YOU have to say specifically after you've established a Body Of Work, so to speak, here whereby even these comments are obviously being judged.
I submit a blog even though it invites comments is not a public "forum". Seems to me a blog is a very private journal (of commentaries) which seem to be of a different nature than Message Board "forums" and the like.
If this was all "public" then you would be able to post topics. But you can't (here). So the nature of your comments should be adjusted accordingly. That and rest of your concept about this "public" forum.
But to your comment... where did you learn to use such phrases?
"Despite being a strident Leftist..."
I just want you to know we really do believe you're a "strident Leftist" now... lol (as if we give a shit whether you are or not... like being a "Leftist" means shit here.)
GET A FUCKIN' CLUE!!
...as I do in my open forum style! :)
PURPOSES OF RHETORIC:
to persuade
to introduce
to praise
to inform
to illustrate
to question
to express
to conclude
to refute
to warn
to apologize
to analyze
Given that you chose to respond to this "public" forum then your purpose/reason for responding as you do is fair game. And, when and if it comes to or is perceived as #1 (as Faheem questioned... and as your rhetoric itself suggested) then by all means your reasons should be questioned.
Simply put you could have presented reasons why you are against Reparations on actual substance (i.e. things that would actually support or even demonstrate your pointed conclusions). In terms of your rhetoric, things you said were Appeals To Convince via fallacious Appeals To Consequences (i.e. "most detrimental"; dependency... huh?) which you don't substaniate. All you got is: Loaded language loaded with nothing of substance.
I don’t want the government’s worthless apologies or money.
This would be the point where NOBODY GIVES A FUCK what you think/want. Again, loaded language... suggestive language. Seriously, if you were not trying to impress something, persuade somebody... being as intelligent and as objective as you pretend to be then there would be no reason for you to label money, out of all things, as "worthless".
On that, I just have to ask you: What planet are you from? lol
Joking aside, if your comments were serious, genuine statements with no attempt to detract, distract or otherwise take away from and/or persuade others to your view then such emotive, loaded language would hardly be necessary.
Your statements were not "innocent" or pure.
Renu, I agree with Scott. The first that they you need to recognize and acknowledge, Renu, is that we live in a world of interdependencies. Our whole system of economics and politics are a system of interdependencies. Businesses are dependant upon customers, customers are dependant upon producers, and workers are dependant upon owners, while owners are dependant upon workers. Politicians are dependant upon voters and voters are dependant upon politicians to forward their agenda. Our system is a synergy of human interdependence that creates a greater whole than what could be achieved by individual independence.
Consequently, Renu, noting dependence in an interdependent construct speaks against the construct and not against those who practice dependence. In other words, don’t hate the player…hate the game. One of the biggest fallacy alluded or implies these days is the notion of being “Self made”. Look…we all have the right to bear arms….right? Then why are we dependant upon the government to provide a military to protect us? Why are we dependant upon the government to build road? Why are we dependent upon the government to provide schools? Why are we dependant upon the government to pass laws? Can’t we all just get along?
The characterization of reparations as a dependency and hence a bad idea is weak.
Noah,
I understand and respect your opinion, but I think your analogies are ill conceived and inaccurate. Of course, we can cite the many forms of dependency operating within a society, but they are certainly not he same. If fact [if we’re going to speak honestly]; the building of roads; the galvanizing of national defense; and the construction of schools are arguably not dependencies. In reality, they are services that we as citizens pay for through our taxes. We are not talking about schools, or roads however; we are talking about reparations for a legalized system of oppressions that have had far-reaching societal consequences. I fail to see how the so-called dependencies you are referencing, are in any way corollaries to the dependency engendered by reparations. We can talk about (and cite) various forms of societal interdependencies all day long, but that won’t get us anywhere in a debate about reparations. I’m not interested in half-baked semantic diversions for arguments sake; I want to get down to the meat of the issue.
The reason why I invited Scott to elaborate is because I am willing to be convinced that reparations is a good thing, but I have yet to encounter a plan (even a hint of a plan) that would have long term benefits (if it could be beneficial at all).
In your opinion, what would a solid working plan for reparations look like? And what would be the benefit for the African-American community, and for America as a whole?
Anyone who can read can see that you are “pro” reparations; but that’s not enough. Make a case, or simply change the subject. I’m willing to make a case “against” it, if you are willing to make a case “for” it (the fact that your feelings are hurt and you’re mad at the government just won’t cut it).
Let’s bring some rigor to the discussion.
Renu
What a person fails to see can be the product of bias, ignorance, as well as the proposition of false analogy. You have not qualified how and why you fail to see, just that you do.
Who is to say that reparations are not a service? Does not the preamble of the constitution state the role of this government to include the promotion of the general welfare and ensure the blessing of liberty? How general to promote the general welfare and secure the blessing of liberty than for the government to assume accountability and responsibility for a social inequality in which it facilitated by law?
You can use any of your fancy literary semantics and word play all you want. You can call reparations can be called a service, a debt, a dependencies, a handout or anything else. However, what it really amounts to, in accounting terminology, is the offsetting credit to 300 plus years of debits from the black collective.
Why discuss a plan when people cannot even agree on the concept? That is putting the buggy before the horse. Moreover, why discuss a plan any plan discussed on this forum is not binding, the resultant of the lack of power to bring said plan into fruition? On this blog we are most concerned with cause and effect. It is not that we don’t have plans or do not do things as individuals. It’s that no matter how good or bad a plan we present….without power, either plan is impotent. So the plan would be a moot point. This is why we tend to focus on cause and effect. Reparations is not a plan, its s debt caused by the actions of enslavement and discrimination for over 3 centuries.
A plan for reparations is critical, because it is very easy to turn a gift into a Trojan horse that destroys you.
Lets take a simple example, lets say every black family got $10,000 worth for free food from KFC. That would giving us something that would most likely be very detrimental in the long run.
Some argue that integration was a Trojan horse.
Lets say that reparations was simply $10k a year cash to each black family. Well first it wouldn't be 10k because I am sure they would count it as self employed income taking 14% off the top for social security and medicare, then another 25% off the top for income tax.
But if the $10k was called a dividend then the maximum tax would be 15%. Or better yet a tax free bond then no tax at all.
But the biggest problem with cash payment is that the upside is limited, and its easy to stop once people want a balanced budget, and it can cause backlash because cash payments are a zero sum game if you get someone else loses, which what caused the backlash on affirmative action.
But many program seem to have no backlash even though it hurts us all, for example interest deduction for mortgages, GI bill that pays for college education, and even one time land grants like the homesteading act or modern equivalents of giveaways to corporations such as the low cost auction of federal oil shale resources in the upcoming energy bill.
I think the #1 part of any reparation plan has to be tax relief for black individuals and black owned business, ideally no taxes. The tax relief will allow black people who are paid less than their white counterparts to have the same or more take home pay. It will encourage businesses to higher black people because they know they can get them at a lower salary.
#2 has to be a direct wealth building strategy. I would like it to be, government paid down payments and co-signing on home loans.
The best part of both of these plans, the harder you work more you get from the reparations. The upside is unlimited.
I think a talk of a plan before the concept is agreed upon, is simply obfuscation and filibustering for those in opposition. When people who are against reparations asks for a plan, you must realize than any plan that is not blacks independently pulling themselves up by their bootstraps, without government aid, reparations or policy, will get rejected. Then they will argue that it is the plan in which they are rejecting and not necessarily the concept, but in truth, it is the concept and idea, which they object to.
Aptly noted NOAH...
That is, most who do it but surprising (not!) talk crossways about REPARATIONS are, indeed, asking for a "plan" in order to pick a fight; aka argument. Obfuscation by any other name.
There really is no shortage of "plan(s)" or ideas about what to do with Reparations. And anyone who wants to cast REPARATIONS as "dependency" obviously just wants to detract via obfuscation.
Such detractors (opponents) either are purposely against Reparations because of the price tag or are incredibly ignorant about Reparations, whether willful or not. And actually most anti-Reparationists are both.
For RENU to equate Reparations with dependency and dare say he's a STRIDENT Leftist (that adjective really helped you... lol) but just happens to be against (Re)Redistribution of Wealth is so unbelievable as to be ridiculous to the extreme of "I can't even laugh at something so pathetic and lamely professed."
Anyway... the real problem with RENU, aside from his disingenuousness, is his ignorance, his apparent willed ignorance when it comes to Reparations. Certainly there is nothing that says Reparations will be or has to be a form of "dependency". I've yet to see anyone speak about other forms/cases of restitution/reparations as things that make those groups "dependent" on government. In fact, the drivers of the Reparations Movement have been clear in saying that Reparations should be a vehicle to Black self-sufficiency and self-determination.
Now, as for my idea or plan, being in control over Reparations, the process and dispensing of it, as not to be "dependent" on the government (rationing out Reparations in ways they prefer) is first and foremost. Only those who are Contrarians or of a limited, contricted mindset would ever think of Reparations as something that would have Blacks be (more) dependent on the government.
If RENU was honest he would own up to his views on government as being antithetical to his pretentiously proclaimed Strident Liberalism. While some have presented ideas for Reparations that are nothing more than a recasting of Affirmative Action type policies, others -- those most in-tune with the actual Movement -- take Reparations beyond a mere Marshall Plan. Again, those deeper conceptions of Reparations are specifically focused on self-sufficiency.
For those who Think Inside The Box about Reparations... I would classify them as either people who want to CO-OPT Reparations or ones afflicted by a limited conception of Reparations.
Me, I believe the Native Americans and the degree and kind of restitution/reparations they've been accorded serve both as precedence and as an instructive case-study.
Long and short, some degree of sovereignty and/or a complete reworking of American "democracy" is in order... in order to make Reparations meaningful. So, I'm still wondering if RENU is talking about and including that type of an approach with his "By Any Means Necessary" TAKE LIST.
I'm game... I just not sure he is.
"Me, I believe the Native Americans and the degree and kind of restitution/reparations they've been accorded serve both as precedence and as an instructive case-study."
Have you seen the state of Native American civil society. Its total shit, only the self help casinos have begun to turn it around in limited areas.
Have you seen the state of Native American civil society. Its total shit, only the self help casinos have begun to turn it around in limited areas.
Exactly what is your post founded on? I.E. what the hell where you thinking?
What part of the word "INSTRUCTIVE" don't you understand?
INSTRUCTION = LESSON
Lessons can be drawn from things that were "good" or "bad" in terms of the consequences or promise...
Please... SPEAK WITH REFERENCE.
Now, will you talk about why the State Of Native American Civil Society is what it is? Or are you just talking out your ass?
Though I may have indicated that theirs represents a Model, nothing I said suggested theirs is an exact Model that we should follow or adopt without alteration. Again, INSTRUCTIVE means we can learn some lessons from their experience.
Now do you have some other questions or unfounded rhetoric?
What? Because what I said did reflect you ideas, as in a mirror-reflection within the same type of construct as yours, you felt like you had something to comment on?
Seriously, exactly what is your problem? What made you think you comments were 1st warranted and 2nd even remotely relevant?
One of the main legacies that have retarded the progress of Native Americans is the “white eyes” spread of “fire water” among its people. Alcoholism is rampant in Native American culture. That, introduction of stimulants from Europeans, has been a tried and true method of breaking down a people in order to conquer them. One can say the same for drugs in the black community to conquer and redirect militancy in disenfranchised alpha youth.
The unwillingness to talk about actual amount and form of reparation shows that you are not serious about them.
Since you are the only serious one with a plan, Scott, what is your plan to get YOUR PLAN moved to fruition? How’s that going for yah? I got a plan for what I would do if I win the power ball lottery. Now all I have to do is win it? Certainly easier said than DONE…is it not Scott. LOL.
SCOTT,
You know? I think I recall having this Native American talk with you before. I could be mistaken but, be that as it may (one way or the other)... don't forget the half-cocked stuff you said to me. By my standards, from what I've seen of "your plan", you're not "serious".
Also, please try to make your comments relevant to the entire context of (my) posts you choose to respond to. I submit that your statements are all the more unfounded if you ever actually considered the WHOLE CONTEXT of what I said instead of Knee-Jerking because I mentioned Native Americans... as an INSTRUCTIVE model/case-study.
But, more than anything, ummm... don't get side-track with NOAH... you were bold enough to say something to me... Forward the very conversation you started with me. I'd appreciate it.
Noah,
I don’t understand your hesitancy and unwillingness to develop a reparations plan. You say it’s futile because you have no power; but why do you feel powerless? You could have power if you chose too. You can join the fight for reparations on many levels (grass roots, within the academy, on the legal front, activism, politically, etc.). Hell, there is no reason why you can’t study law (it only takes two years); join other attorneys currently waging this battle; create your own contingent of lawyers; and simply argue your case brother! Your plan could very well become the successful one.
The only reason why you bring up reparations is because the subject provides you with the opportunity to castigate the white man (or white supremacy). You say it’s silly to offer a plan when one has no power, but the only one here that feels powerless is you (and your buddies). Your inept call for reparations, devoid of any semblance of an articulate plan of action is what’s silly. You’re all talk – and full of recycled, cliché, and outmoded Black Nationalist rhetoric. I suggest that you toss away your feelings of powerlessness and put all that rage to good use.
On the upside, Scott has some interesting ideas about reparations, but I still find them problematic in terms of implementation. Of course, there is a case to be made for reparations, but realizing it will be next to impossible (and the consequences catastrophic). The problem is simple: the granting of benefits to one constituency at the expense of others in need; is to engender new inequities and social divisions. Hence, reparations must be conceived as a measure that will benefit society at large.
I do not believe in reparations as it has been conceived in recent years, primarily because it will not adequately redress black suffering. When I state that we must rid ourselves of government dependency, I am speaking about the “psychology” of dependency and powerlessness that currently plague our communities. We must rid ourselves of the psychic scars of subjugation (our dysfunction is rooted there). This cannot be redressed with government sanctioned financial compensation and apologies. Until we change our psychology: how we feel about ourselves; our potential; our health; our possibilities; our politics, then our plight will not change.
The best models I can offer you that exemplify this problem are African nations; former European colonies. Many of these nations were given significant reparations, but these former colonies remain dystopias. Most experts believe that this occurs because the “psychology of the oppressed” (meaning the profound psychological trauma inflicted by oppression) leaves the culture scarred to the point where financial reparations are all but meaningless. In short, our “self-annihilating” behavior is deeply entrenched in the systematic psychological abuse inflicted upon us for four hundred years. As of yet, no one has a plan to treat these psychological chains. This has also been the case for Native Americans. Reparations did not work for them. This occurred because the Native American community is plagued with nihilism, depression, and deep psychological traumas. As a result, substance abuse, family dysfunction, and various other problems are rampant. All the financial, educational, and social programs cannot repair this damage. This can only be repaired from within the culture itself.
I’m involved with a coalition of individuals (attorneys, business men/women, intellectuals) that are creating a proposal for a program that is an alternative to reparations.
Our vision is to create a national task force against social inequality. This organization’s mission is to ensure that “all” Americans have adequate health care, educational facilities/opportunities, housing, and employment. This will be done as an effort to ensure that “all” Americans are up to speed, and on stable ground. Most importantly, this task force works to “redress” social inequity by bridging the gap between the white and black working poor (as well as other ethnic and racial minorities). By framing the task force as anti-Racism, and for “all” citizens in need, the organization will hopefully be viewed as a necessary national effort to eliminate labor, racial, and class exploitation. Compensation for crimes committed against African-Americans is counted amongst the inequities addressed by the task force including: gender and sexual discrimination, housing discrimination, institutional racism (in business, education, etc.), abusive labor laws, exploitation of farmers, the list goes on… What is important here is that we do not advocate essentialism of any sort; meaning, we do not prioritize suffering and injustice. No group takes preference over another, as we believe such thinking merely reinforces social division and intolerance.
This is something that all citizens could get behind, and feel good about. Once completed, this proposal will be presented to law and policymakers. Amongst academic, business and philanthropic culture, there has been a great deal of interest. Most importantly, we refuse to adopt an attitude of powerlessness. We created a plan, and are in the process of putting it into action.
I suggest you do the same!
Renu
This organization’s mission is to ensure that “all” Americans have adequate health care, educational facilities/opportunities, housing, and employment. This will be done as an effort to ensure that “all” Americans are up to speed, and on stable ground. Most importantly, this task force works to “redress” social inequity by bridging the gap between the white and black working poor (as well as other ethnic and racial minorities). By framing the task force as anti-Racism, and for “all” citizens in need, the organization will hopefully be viewed as a necessary national effort to eliminate labor, racial, and class exploitation.
I could swear I said something about CO-OPTATION. "All" Americans...
Umm.... "ALL" Americans didn't experience chattel, racialized Slavery. "ALL" Americans didn't experience Jim Crow APARTHEID Reparations and, really... if you apply Reparations type program to to "ALL" Americans then wouldn't that mean, BY YOUR LOGIC, that "All" Americans would be DEPENDENT??
NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anti-Racist... my ass!!
CO-OPTATION by any other name...
As of yet, no one has a plan to treat these psychological chains. This has also been the case for Native Americans. Reparations did not work for them.
Inaccurate or rather misleading if not blatantly ignorant or deceiptful on both counts.
Like I challenged SCOTT, let's see you come forth with the actual historically ground TRUTH about NATIVE AMERICANS and I submit, whether you call it a "plan" or not, that there would not be such a theory or area of study/concern/consideration as POST TRAUMATIC SLAVE SYNDROME if the mental/psychological health issues were being neglected.
Really, you only show your ignorance, willed or honest.
I do not believe in reparations as it has been conceived in recent years, primarily because it will not adequately redress black suffering.
TRUTH or CONSEQUENCES:
Name a time when REPARATIONS was so [well] conceived that it, its proponents did speak to how to adequately address/redress "Black Suffering."
I mean, your statement was genuine as opposed to DISINGENUOUS. Right??
Seems like that latter especially as you descend into (at best) half-truths, questionable, if not completely cynical theories and the ultimate CO-OPT of treating "unique" and exclusive "suffering" with an ALL-INCLUSIVE approach for what? To get every American behind a march to universal DEPENDENCY. Again, using your logic.
Funny how DEPENDENCY changes by the way it's applied or who "ALL" receives it.
LOL.... LOL.... LOL...
NmagiNATE you are always good for a laugh. I usually ignore you but I am bored today.
You ask for complete responses to you diatribes while never responding to anyone else's point.
All I can say I hope you silliness gets you laid, because if it doesn't its totally pointless.
But what really conserns me most is Noah seeming nilism. He obviously doesn't think things are pointless because he puts effort into writing his essays. But then when ased what do you want to do he usually replied it doesn't matter, I can't change anything you can't change anything.
But if you decide, my vote is worthless, my actions are worthless of course you will fail.
If you really believe in the conspiracy to stop black people from getting reparations at least present a theory that Johannie C was killed by the man because he was working on reparations.
End of day we deserve reparations, but we don't need reparations.
But if you walk around feeling helpless you will accomplish nothing. Which is your right but don't pretend that you understand how the world works. I know plently of brother that are doing just fine who have gone to school made serious cash and live their life as they want to.
And if you are going to live your life thinking if i was white it would be easier and I would have more you need a reality check. You are an American. No ONE on the planet has the opprotunity you have. Even white people in Europe can't make the kind of cash and have the freedom and opprotunities you have.
So drop the loser script Noah.
http://neil.franklin.ch/Jokes_and_Fun/Winner_or_Looser.html#lose
3. The semantic loser:
"I can't solve my problems."
SCOTT,
You're always good for being scared to address points where you show considerable ignorance. Points where you say DUMB SHIT and expect that shit to fly, just because you said it.
Again:
Now, will you talk about why the State Of Native American Civil Society is what it is? Or are you just talking out your ass?
If I recalled correctly (that you and I had this Native American conversation before), why is it that you still can't go beyond ignorant, weak and erroneous suggestions and haven't been able to detail, accurately the entire State Of Affairs when it comes to Native Americans and the amount of redress they have been accorded, what happen to those measures as they have been implemented over the years, etc., etc.
That is to say, I suspect or rather know you are uninformed, well plain ignorant about Native Americans & their Reparations but my challenge to you has always been two-fold: [1] You could prove me (my suspicion) wrong when and if you detailed a thorough and accurate rendering of Native History and their "reparations"; and [2] You could actually educate yourself -- that way we could actually have an intelligent conversation without you being dead-dumb weight.
So, SCOTT, I'm laughing because you've once again shown the same level of utter stupidity and pure ignorance on the very same topic you've shown your feckless and weasel ass on before.
But, I'll hold out hope for you SCOTT. Please inform me in some respectable detail about Native Americans and the type of restitution/reparations they received, how those things were handled (note my emphasis in my initial post on "CONTROL") and how all that translated into How Reparations Worked For Them.
TRUTH IN HISTORY, Scott...
Back your shit up with actual, thorough and accurate information. It's not that hard. What?? Do my questions (which you can't answer) SCARE YOU?
Here's a hint for you:
We know the history of broken treaties, etc. Tell me how "Reparations" to Native Americans, as you speak about them, have not been subjected to that same type [WHITE] American dishonorable dealings.
Not a hard question SCOTT.
Again, you wanted to direct your stupid-ignorance to me with you lame ass rhetorical (and ignorant) question, DON'T GET SCARED NOW!!
You want to talk Native Americans, COME ON!! I'm sure there's a lot for me learn but it sure seems like you easily my junior in that department. I guess that explains your Skirt-ation -- i.e. dance around and away from the issue you wanted to bring up.
TYPICAL...
First of all, I never said I do not have a plan or vision of how I would think reparations would do the most good. Not presenting a plan and not having a plan or vision is two different things. The absence of the presentation of a plan is not evidence of absence of a plan. In truth, who am I to say what the plan should be for millions of African Americans? To sit here a have a debate about a plan that I have no power or will to bring into fruition, is pointless to me. My greatest sphere of influence is to argue the merits of the CONCEPT of reparations and not the details of the plan.
If there is going to be a debate, the debate should be about forwarding the concept and creating the body or means that will have the ultimate power and responsibility of deciding the best way to disperse reparation. The debate needs to about WHOM or WHAT entity will create the plan. What intellectual will be at the table? Will the black masses get a vote on an array of options? Are we willing accept reparations if the government puts the stipulation that the government will decide how the money is to be used?
To sit here and have a debate about the details of how reparations should be implemented, based upon our personal opinion, is pointless, outside of giving each other something to argue about. IT DOES NOT HELP THE REPARATIONS MOVEMENT ONE BIT!!!!! Lets make that clear. The biggest impediment to the fruition of reparations is not the lack of detail plans, but rather, its intransigence to the acceptance of the concept. Debating details, before the concept, is putting the buggy before the horse.
If there is going to be a debate, the debate should be about forwarding the concept and creating the body or means that will have the ultimate power and responsibility of deciding the best way to disperse reparation. The debate needs to about WHOM or WHAT entity will create the plan.
EXACTLY...
And, truthfully, we can see those who want to bastardize the concept by the very fact of WHOM they want to insert into the implementation (or in RENU's case, as recipients) and by their naive neglect of this very crucial aspect.
What both Renu and Scott failed to mention is WHO and WHAT (government) mechanism controlled the dispersal of Native American restitution/reparations and their attendant TRUST funds.
But, of course, asking the DECEIPTFUL and ignorant for accuracy and truth is also a vain exercise. So, yes, there is some fundamental differences on the very concept itself.
Noah,
You have made it abundantly clear that you have chosen powerlessness as opposed to action. Since you feel inept and have chosen inaction, I suggest that you refrain from discussing the subject. Talk is cheap my friend. All we need are more black whiners sitting on their butts; we have enough of them already. Are you content being this way Noah? I hope not! You could become a major voice for the reparations cause if you simply believed in yourself. Remember, you are not a victim; you have chosen victimhood. Your surrender to powerlessness is exactly the “psychology of the oppressed” I was referring to: the psychic trauma of victimization. You have fully assimilated yourself into the rhetoric of “alterity” (look this word up, I want you to fully get this). The culture of black dependency is largely psychological. You feel that the only way for black people to be saved is by the hands of whites. You expect them to save you, because you deserve it. But like Scott said: we deserve reparations, but we don’t need it. I really suggest that you read “Black Skin, White Masks,” by Frantz Fanon.
Can’t you see that your mantra of powerlessness is the psychology of dependency? You’re not thinking my friend.
And yes, the absence of “a presentation” of a plan, certainly “is” evidence that one has no plan – especially when they have been asked time and time again. Why would you even concoct some “mysterious” plan, if you believe that to do so is to: “Put the buggy before the horse?” You don’t have a plan Noah… And as you say, you’re more interested in useless talk and finger pointing.
Saying that plans are not necessary until the concept has been agreed upon, is one of the most unbelievably stupid and scatterbrained things I’ve heard yet. In order for the reparations cause to be agreed upon, there first “must” be a workable and efficient plan. What in the hell do you think a proposal is? Reparations lobbyists are working tirelessly to present a “thoroughly conceived plan” in which they will argue its societal benefits. Saying that they must first get the OK from the government before creating a plan is absurd. A good plan is what’s going to get the OK, not vice versa.
That being said, neither you, nor your “unthinking yes-men” have offered even the semblance of a plan that could convince even the most liberal-minded lawmaker that reparations are a good idea. In fact, I’ve never once seen you guys back up anything you say. And when others do, you just dismiss them and cower away. That’s what you’re doing now with your ignorant buggy analogies; but I’m too smart or that. Let’s see your mythical plan Noah: you know, the one that you’re keeping behind the hourse.
Unlike you, I am actively engaged in an alternative plan to reparations, and it is quickly gaining momentum. Our proposal is aimed at healing the wounds of racism, rather than fueling hatred and exacerbating social divisions. Hence, African-Americans can be compensated without engendering new inequalities, and/or neglecting the presence of other oppressions. My plans are not based on “opinion,” they are based on “action.” Why can’t you do the same? For some reason you view yourself as “outside” of culture: that culture and politics is enacted upon you, as opposed to “you” impacting culture and politics.
Never mind reparations, my question to you is why do you feel powerless? I’m serious about this… you say this constantly. What has happened in your life to make you feel so incapable of impacting society? I’m not asking for the dreaded “plan,” so I’m sure this is a question you can actually answer.
Renu
Our proposal is aimed at healing the wounds of racism, rather than fueling hatred and exacerbating social divisions. Hence, African-Americans can be compensated without engendering new inequalities, and/or neglecting the presence of other oppressions.
What "New Inequalities"?
Why do you frame - and I do mean FRAME - REPARATIONS (For African-Americans) as "neglecting" others?
And this Anti-Racist program will do what to change the Power Relationships in the American polity?
What exactly is on your TAKE List?
LOL, you kill me Renu. What you need to understand about me is that I have a one-on-one approach to the black struggle. Instead of trying to lead millions, which is not my strength, I tend to reach out to help pull up those that I can pull up, without sacrificing making sacrifice to my family. You see, to be the type of collective leader like Malcolm and king requires a great sacrifice to and of the family, which I am not willing to make, because it recognize it is not my strength. The love of my immediate family is of higher importance to me than my love for my extended black family. You can call that strength, weakness, insecurity, dependency or whatever else you want…because it is a reality that I am comfortable with.
My greatest strength is on the personal and individual level, articulating cause and effect on the collective level, by not in leading the masses. Again, I don’t want that, because I am not willing to sacrifice my love for my family for that. Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses and various sacrifices they are willing to make for the cause. I do enough to be proud of how I live my life and the difference I have made in the life of Africans and African Americans.
I deal in the world of mathematical probabilities, more so than the world of possibilities. What you glean as pessimism or personal insecurity is not more than a logical mind calculating probabilities. The probability that my ONE vote will change the outcome of a national election is too remote for me to cast it. Moreover, the fact that the options that I am choosing from is between white and whiter policy and ideology leads me to recognize that in this representative republic, that my black interest are not being catered to.
In regards to reparations and leading and commanding or demanding that others accept my plan is ridiculous, draconian and pompous. Just because you are a pompous, self absorbed, what you think is best for everyone…don’t assume that I should be and do the same. You are simply obfuscating and filibustering. The real issue for debate is the CONCEPT and the method of creating the framers of reparations
I am actively engaged in an alternative plan to reparations
ALTERNATIVE:
different from the usual or conventional
So basically you have purposely ALTERED the very nature of Reparations in order to pursue your so-called anti-racist goal.
Our proposal is aimed at healing the wounds of racism, rather than fueling hatred and exacerbating social divisions.
Funny how none of the other restitution/reparations cases are FRAMED in that manner. Native Americans came up and, somehow, the issue of "Racial Healing" and "social divisions" didn't come up.
Simply, this so-called Anti-Racism of yours is bent on yielding to WHITE SUPREMACY via this burden of Healing and Unifying you place squarely on African-Americans. Well, the anti-racists I'm aware of seem to see through your BS just like I do:
Racism, including racism
within the predominantly white progressive movement, is deep.
...many of the younger people within the global justice movement instinctively appreciate the idea of self-determination. As was pointed out to me by one person who responded to my last column on reparations, this self-determination concept is at the core of the reparations movement--demanding the compensation due and owed to make one's community whole, so that it can then stand on its own two feet and allow
the community as a whole and individuals within it to make their own life choices free of white domination.
Not all white activists support this concept. Many older, white labor activists, for example, believe that the correct approach must be one of working for unity among workers of all nationalities by emphasizing the fight against racism on the job and in the community, within the context
of a multi-racial working class and multi-racial organizations. This is fine and commendable as far as it goes. But some of these same activists have problems with all-African American, all-Latino or other constituency-based groups organized around the special oppression felt by those particular groups.
To me, opposition to these forms of organization is a form of racism...
http://www.ippn.org/article.php?ID=fh42.html
In terms of fighting for racial equity, what specific things do you think whites can do?
First, recognize that racism is a white problem, and a problem that all whites must address...
Second, don't worry so much about interracial alliances and organizing. First, organize around racism in the white community; with friends, colleagues, family members, neighbors. I know we all want to work together, and build alliances with people of color, but unless we spend just as much time working on cleaning up our own shit, intraracially, then no long-term alliances are going to last...
http://www.lipmagazine.org/articles/featbrasel_75_p.htm
The message applies regardless as to whether you're Black or White. If you're Black then there is some serious AHISTORICAL Delusions you bring to the table. If you're White then those things apply exactly in the context they were written.
Basically, RENU, with this talk of Fueling Hatred and Division (by the way you FRAME Reparations) all you do is legitimate WHITE RACISM and White Supremacy.
The notion that White People Et Al will ACT A FOOL when Black People get REPARATIONS sounds like there is serious issues WHITE PEOPLE NEED TO DEAL WITH.
Again, as one renown Anti-Racist has said: Racism is a white problem
And, obviously, you suffer from some serious issues yourself:
That being said, neither you, nor your “unthinking yes-men” have offered even the semblance of a plan that could convince even the most liberal-minded lawmaker that reparations are a good idea.
Hmmm... It seems to me if there is such a growing [National Task] Force - your "ALTERnative" - then one of the TASK for the White members would be to do this "convincing".
Funny how these things are FRAMED as something Black people should be seeking to do or to avoid. Again, this LEGITIMATES White Racism and White Supremacy. And, frankly, if the "most" Liberal-Minded lawmaker needs "convincing" then that's hardly an indictment against the Reparations Movement.
The question of whether Reparations is a "Good Idea", in and of itself, is steeped in obvious and very problematic FRAMING. IMO, it shows your questionable FRAME of Reference whether that's how you term it or whether it reflects you repeating... ummm... regurgitating BS you've heard.
The very idea of posing Reparations as something that's not "a good idea" shows a serious mis-orientation problem. I've never known anyone to consider JUSTICE a "bad idea" except for those who somehow figure themselves to be on the wrong side of JUSTICE. So, with that, we can see how the way you FRAME things amounts to a transparent and twisted (mis)representation of what Reparations is about.
Renu, you are full of bull excrement (Look the term up, for I want you to fully understand and appreciate the claim). The reason being is that the foundation of your strategy is to not tax or offend the white masses. When you talk about power, you only talk about power in the context of the power white folks give you. What you are telling me is that I could have a lot more power, if I choose an attitude, approach and ideology that white folks find acceptable. That is not power my friend (or foe), that is what we used to call “punking out”.
Who has said that I am depending or hoping on white folks to save us? The truth is that black labor and Native Americans land saved white folks from the tyranny and oppression of Europe. When Caucasians were isolated to their all white world of Europe, the vast majority of them were impoverished, iterate, landless peasants, exploited by the aristocracy and monarchies. It was not until their elites and armies captured the labor and land of people of color, did opportunities open up for the white masses in a NEW world. Yet, you have the audacity to talk as if the repayment of the labor or our black ancestors is looking to white to save us…you must be on crystal meth or crack bro…because you got it all twisted.
If a tree falls in a forest and you are not there to here it, but I am, does it make any sound? Does the absence of you hearing the sound mean that there was none? What about the sound that I heard and can you prove that I did not hear a sound? Because you have the audacity to bare false witness of what I have or don’t have makes you the obvious charlatan and fool here.
John Conyers has presented house resolution forty for over 20 years. This resolution is to get congress to study the impact of slavery and Jim Crow upon contemporary black Americans. If the congress, of a representative republic, cannot even agree to study the impact and effect of centuries of oppression upon black people and the nation, they sure in heck don’t care about a detailed plan for reparations. Only a dung fool would think such….which qualifies you Renu.
Furthermore, stop your BS. You characterize your “plan” as an alternative to reparations. In truth, what your plan is ANTI-REPERATIONS. Because your plan is to appease white racism and you are simply one of those “Scared to death Negroes” who don’t want to ask the massa to pay us for our work…because the massa might get upset and make us work harder.
John Conyers has presented house resolution forty for over 20 years. This resolution is to get congress to study the impact of slavery and Jim Crow upon contemporary black Americans.
NOAH, obviously Rep. Conyers didn't "convince" even the "Most" Liberal-Minded congressmen/women that merely STUDYING Reparations was/is a "GOOD" idea.
I'd just like for RENU to set the historical record straight. Were these types of questions, these FRAMED questions present amongst so-called Anti-Racist or (the most) Liberal-Minded when it came to Native Americans or Japanese Americans? How about [White] Farmers in the Midwest?
Noah,
I knew you would eventually get around to calling me a Negro-Con, “scared-to-death-Negro,” or one of your other unimaginative and “rote” responses. You always utter these insults once you’ve run out of ideas. I can almost see you scratching your head, searching for a comeback. You come up with these pathetic rationalizations for everything: from your pitiful spelling and grammar; to your misuse of words you should have learned in high school; to your beloved “victimology” and “powerlessness;” to your complete and utter ignorance of our African-American literary and intellectual culture; to your boorish and primitive racist, essentialist parochialism; to your complete and utter lack of a plan for the empty Afrocentric rhetoric you pollute the internet with.
Do you suffer from dyslexia too? What next?
Once called on your self-professed “powerlessness,” and chosen inaction, you then start proclaiming that your family loyalty prohibits you from martyring yourself like Malcolm and Martin. Damn brother… that’s pathetic. Frankly it’s embarrassing for you to hide behind your family. I thank my lucky stars that I didn’t have a pussy like you for a father. Anyway, nobody asked you to martyr yourself. I merely suggested that you get involved in the reparations cause that you evidently feel to “powerless” to impact. No one said you should become a revolutionary. But you probably should, considering the mounds of pseudo-Black Nationalist shit you talk.
You have no right to ask for something that you have no compulsion to fight for! OK, Mr. Powerlessness?
The task force I am a part of is much more incendiary, and indicting of white supremacy (than reparations) because it resists giving in to the compulsory divisiveness upon which it has maintained itself for the past four hundred years. Black essentialism (or any essentialism for that matter) bolsters white supremacy and hatred because it encourages divisiveness and separatism. All the great black intellectuals have understood this. Of course, you don’t because you have yet to read this indispensable material. Hell, even Malcolm X’s redemptive transformation from a “Black Nationalist essentialist hate-monger” to a humanist who embraced “all” races was predicated upon this understanding. The same is true for King and his brother in arms, Bayard Rustin. The goal of these individuals was to bring the races together through healing, togetherness, and unity. That is the only way that white supremacy (or any form of hatred) can be beaten. My task force is anti-racist in the most profound way because we align ourselves under the spirit of unity. And we do not let any racist, or form of racism “off the hook.” Anyone who hates, and/or promotes hatred (white, black, or otherwise) will “not” find our plan palatable. We are comprised of all races, genders, nationalities, colors classes, and sexual orientations: and we are all actively committed to erasing inequality in the United States. Furthermore, many of the nation’s most prominent intellectuals are behind this effort; so who are you to judge it, Mr. Powerlessness?
So yes, our plan is anti-reparations because we believe that such an effort is essentialist, divisive and ill conceived at is very root (never mind the fact that I already proclaimed to be anti-reparations, dummy!). Furthermore, as has been proven by past efforts both globally and locally: reparations does not work because the psychological damage inflicted on oppressed peoples is not healed by such efforts. In other words, the behavioral dysfunction engendered by years of mental and physical abuse cannot be reversed by economic compensation. If you could actually commit yourself to studying, you would understand that what I am saying has been written about and contemplated for decades. And to make matters worse, you are so content in your ignorance that you can’t allow yourself to ask for the appropriate references.
It’s too bad that the only response you can muster is your typical muddled and incoherent anti-white/anti-black nonsense. It’s sad that you feel powerless; but much worse is your comfort with hatred and intolerance. I truly hope you can find some peace and humanity because your hate will undoubtedly be your undoing.
Renu
The fact that you interpret a Negro-Con or a scared to death Negro as a pejorative is on you. I simply use the term, Mrs Jones..er uh…Renu to characterize my observations. Tell me why you interpret A Negro conservative or a scared to death Negro as a pejorative? It is you who interpret the terms as pejorative.
Renu, I be sayin you is an arse hole. Now, now matter the bad spelling or grammar of that sentence, the substance is still clear to you, which is the simply fact that you are an A-hole of the first order. You see, communication does not have to be grammatically perfect for you to glean the substance of the message.
As I have stated before, I can always correct grammar, or have a proofreader, without changing the substance of my argument. You, on the other hand, with your perfect grammar and verbosity, cannot change the illogic of your arguments substance, without producing a different conclusion. Your attack is akin to an ugly person criticizing another person for being fat. The fat person can lose weight, but the ugly person cannot lose ugly, without plastic surgery, LOL. Ergo, I might be fat, but you are a FUGLY MoFo (look up the slang…because I want you to understand and appreciate what I am saying..LOL).
With all your intellectual masturbation, renu, the only person getting off on it is YOU. I have not heard one person express support for your opinions on this forum and we get lots of dissenters, but no one is “feelin you bro”….with the likely exception of Mrs Jones (aka Nat Turner Jones) and you and I both know why that is..LOL. You aint foolin nobody up in here dog.
Look, I was raised in a tough neighborhood and if you want to try and dis me…you got to come way better than your intellectual masturbating. That BS may have some sway on some white bread, suburban, momma’s boy or daddies girl…but not this brother…OK.
The thing is Renu, with all your literary acumen, you’re still stuck on STUPID. You are one of those superficial Fugly MOFO’s, who thinks he can fool people into thinking you are intelligent, because you have mastered the Kings English. I bet everything about your tired arse is a superficial façade that serves as camouflage and subterfuge for a weak and stupid MOFO.
Now, back to the matter at hand. Let me correct you. I have never ASKED for reparations, dumb arse. Go find the record of where I did. Its just another one of your fantasies so that you can literally masturbate some more, by rubbing your foul smelling pom pom with verbosity. I have simply made a case for what black people are DUE…I have not asked anyone for a dang thing, so don’t get it twisted.
Let me tell you something else, as you have much literary sense, but know common sense or wisdom. In a world where there are forces of good and evil, the righteous and the wicked, truth will always create a backlash among the wicked. The fight for emancipation created division and increased the push for white domination and lead to the splitting of the union. Things got worse in the short run, but better in the long run. Some times you have to take one step back in order to take to steps forward..itchB. You understand what I am trying to say? Of course those whites who are wicked and racist will react negatively to reparations, just like the reacted negatively to emancipation. What’s new dumb arse? You see, this is the type of stupidity that you mask with all your literary acumen and genius, as if it is a valid substitute to wisdom and truth. You are one sorry MofO, Renu.
If you are going to masturbate….you should at least get a picture of a women….or a man in your case…and stop coming in here playing with yourself. We don’t want to see that in this blog.
You got the audacity to question my judgment about my commitment to reparations because of my commitment to my family…. your momma raised a fool…probably two or three of them…if you got some siblings. There is NOTHING more important to me in this world than my family. That might not be true for you, because your weak arse probable cannot even find a mate. Hey…what do you need a mate for when you can masturbate off your literary verbosity and acumen? Instead of producing a life…. you can produce a BOOK and get publishes….LOL…with your sorry arse. You probably just some black Barney Fife looking and acting mufu.
I’m done wit yo unkP arse….scared to death arse, perpetrating NegroCon!
So yes, our plan is anti-reparations because we believe that such an effort is essentialist, divisive and ill conceived at is very root...
And the VERY ROOT and History of Reparations as a concept of restitution, again, shows how you have BASTARDIZED the concept. Funny how the ANTI-RACIST I'm aware of beg to differ from you, RENU.
Funny how this "bring the races together" seems pretty damn one-sided. Needless to say, there are competing interpretations to the one you presented especially with regard to Malcolm X. Well, Dr. King too!
But keep that silly naivete or thinly veiled deceipt.
Again, one Anti-Racist says:
Racism is a white problem...
So it seems to me, at the very least, White Americans should be leading the charge which, obviously, given the power they have with the existing structure (to which you propose no change, no change that will change the Power Relations) they've yet to show they interest in what you're talking about. I wonder why??
But, you would rather LEGITIMATE all that shit. Something is "DIVISIVE" strictly because it will piss off White people. And lord knows we can't piss off White people. You know, "WE NEED THEM"; aka the DEFINITION OF DEPENDENCY!!
But back on that "divisive" BULLSHIT!! All you're doing is legitimating WHITE RACISM and White Supremacy. Somehow, Black "Anger" is unacceptable, no matter how morally warranted but White "Anger" is something to be avoided at all costs and something to circumscribe everything around as if... as if some high moral and righteous principle is violated when that's done no matter how unwarranted White animus is.
A-fucking-MAZING!!
Yours is a very sorry position, RENU.
On Malcolm X:
"I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don't believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn't want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn't know how to return the treatment."
Speech, 12 December 1964, New York City.
Renu don't be so disappointed in Noah, the white man made him who he is. And as long as his wife buys his bullshit he is happy getting laid and being henpecked.
"Failure to plan is planning to fail" -- and that is the best part. Every time they fail whether its to get reparations, it proves they are right about white supremacy stopping them because it couldn't be their own incompetence.
BTW: Even with his own family he ain't doing so well.
http://blackintrospection.blogspot.com/2004/12/micro-liberalism-and-conservatism.html
But despite the fact that I saw that Islam was a religion of brotherhood, I also had to face reality. And when I got back into this American society, I'm not in a society that practices brotherhood... This is a society whose government doesn't hesitate to inflict the most brutal form of punishment and oppression upon dark-skinned people all over the world.
...But still, I wouldn't judge them just 'cause they're white, or they'd call me a racist. [I'm] judging by their deeds, by their conscious behavior -- and you know how they've been consciously behaving... So you and I got to get conscious, and start behaving in a way that we can offset this thing before it's too late -- and this is what they don't want to hear.
...the white man... invents statistics to create an image, thinking that that image is going to hold things in check. You know why they always say Negroes are lazy? 'Cause they want Negroes to be lazy. They always say Negroes can't unite because they don't want Negroes to unite...
...We believe that our people should be educated into the science of politics... so that you can control the politics of your own community, and the politicians that represent that community.
[Note: This is the very way Malcolm X defined BLACK NATIONALISM, his quibble over the term -- the implications on linking to other struggles of oppressed people and "brotherhood" -- notwithstanding...]
I say again that I'm not a racist... I'm for the brotherhood of everybody, but I don't believe in forcing brotherhood upon people who don't want it. Long as we practice brotherhood among ourselves, and then others who want to practice brotherhood with us, we practice it with them also, we're for that. But I don't think that we should run around trying to love somebody who doesn't love us.
February 14, 1965
http://www.malcolm-x.org/speeches/spc_021465.htm
***The political philosophy of black nationalism means that the black man should control the politics and the politicians in his own community; no more.***
Did not the white mans ambition have a role in your existence Scott? Do you think you would be a Nego-Con in America if the white man had not brought your ancestors over here as slaves? Do you know that there is nearly zero probability of the ancestral genetic combination that manifest as YOU would have manifested if not for the white man? Oh….I forgets that you are one of those Self made Negroes, whose whole being is the creation of himself. You did even have a momma and papa…you brought your own self into this world, nursed yourself from your own tit and became the self made man that you are. You guys kill me with your ignorance….but don’t be disappointed in me because I don’t share the stupidity and pompousness.
What I want to know is for the clowns talking about they have all this power…why have not they changed slit? Why do we still have all these problems, when you two powerful Negro-cons have power plus plans? If you have power and plans…and aint nothing changing…then either your power is impotent or your plan is a failure or a combination there of. You two keep assaulting my reasoning because I have claimed to not posses the power to change the system. Yet, you two, by logical implication, claim power and plan, yet have not changed a dang thing.
Even the president of the USA has limitations on what he can do. But Noah you are nothing but limitations.
But you are amusing, as you talk your psuedo sciece BS.
The task force I am a part of is much more incendiary, and indicting of white supremacy (than reparations) because it resists giving in to the compulsory divisiveness upon which it has maintained itself for the past four hundred years.
I ask you again, how do you propose to change the Power Relationships. Still nary a word. Seems like you're Talking Loud And Saying NOTHING!
...we do not let any racist, or form of racism “off the hook.” Anyone who hates, and/or promotes hatred (white, black, or otherwise) will “not” find our plan palatable.
"HATE"?? WTF are you talking about? What does "HATE" have to do with it?
Again, the Anti-Racists I'm aware of beg to differ with the type of stuff you've said. On such Anti-Racist has called so-called Interracial/Multi-racial movements as steeped in RACISM. And, I don't believe "HATE" is an apt/adequate descriptor. But keep trying... lol
...we are all actively committed to erasing inequality in the United States.
I ask you again, how do you propose to change the Power Relationships. How do you propose to Erase That Fundamental, most inherent, systematic, structural INEQUALITY?
What changes to the system, what changes to the White Supremacy Order do you and yours propose?
How will American Democracy change as a result of your Task Force's "indictment" of White Supremacy and its "strong" stance against inequality? Certainly, you must have a plan, a concept that addresses the fundamental, systematic and structural changes necessary to root out inequality and Dismantle White Supermacy.
Okay... WHAT IS IT?
many of the nation’s most prominent intellectuals are behind this effort
NAME THOSE INTELLECTUALS!
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]
[5]
[6]....
Is Manning Marable in that group?
Regardless, NAME THEM. Don't be sooooooo MYSTERIOUS... lol
SCOTT,
Amuse and entertain that Native American topic you wanted to bring up.
Still waiting for you to break down that history for me since you know so much about it...
I mean, you are like part Native American, right? (As I believed you once posed...)
So I'm still waiting... Don't Tell Me You're SCARED?? lol I mean, I'm "good for a laugh" and NOAH's "amusing" so it seems you could devote as much cyber-ink to the very conversation you pretended you wanted with me as you have talking about how you feel Noah feels "powerless".
What? I present too much of a challenge to you or something?
I mean this is, again, something we've talked about before (Native Amer~ and Reparations). Don't tell me you're still unprepared, underprepared.
Scott, now here you go qualifying and revising your previous claim. Now you are recognizing, due to having to call you out on what YOU have actually changed, that everyone is not without some degree of powerlessness. But guess what…you aint the president Negro. You cannot bare witness what my degree of power and powerlessness is, so don’t obfuscate and make yourself look more of the fool in trying…assuming that it is possible for you to be more foolish than is.
The question still stands for you two with all this big talk about power and plans. You see, the difference between you to detractors and myself is that I don’t make personal claims that I cannot back up. My statement of powerlessness was and is based upon the evidence of what I have been able to change thus far. Your claims of power and plans are based upon some delusion or fantasy of something not yet achieved. At this very point in time, neither of you have changed the collective state of the black condition, despite your confidence in having the power and plan to do so. Despite all your talk….you have PRODUCED NOTHING. Both You and Renu are full of slit…but thanks for being our sparing partners in preparation for some REAL debaters.
Noah the reason you are an idiot is that you don't realize that thought PRECEEDS action.
Thus one needs to PLAN than act.
Since you don't plan you will NEVER act.
I plan and you are correct it is possible that these plan's will turn into nothin but hot air. But there is a possibility that I may do something and make changes beyond the one on one advocacy I have already done with my life. While you will NEVER accomplish anything because you have no plan.
You are prefectly content bitching a moaning like some fat girl who thinks its so unfair the football captain wont look past her unhealthly body and see her wonderful personality.
BTW: that in no way describes all fat girls, just the ones always portrayed on TV. I know plently for big girls who have their pick of any man they want.
Since when does action require a plan? Have you ever heard of instinctive behavior? Have you ever heard of spontaneity? Actions do not require a plan and plans do necessarily lead to action. You have created and used false corollary, because as usual, you have to invent fallacies just to have an argument.
The bottom line is, you aint done SLIT. I will say it again for both you and Renu. You two aint done jack Slit. Yet, you have the audacity to criticize me because I recognize my limitations in a given window of time and masses to move.
You two are offering conjecture about your future juxtapose against the reality of my present. IF and WHEN…does not sound like the manifestation of POWER…. it sounds like a condition of DEPENDANCY. If you had any REAL power, your plan would be manifesting. Moreover, how long have you had this plan that you have done nothing with yet? Two, three, five or ten years maybe? Negro…with all that power and all those detailed plans…whats the problem…LOL. I guess you got to wait on the massa to say…”Ok Boy…what was that idea you had…..you been a good Ni66a….I will see what I can do for you”. LOL. You guys killlllllll me. What kind of fantasy world are you living in?
You got big plans like Cedric the Entertainer, in his new movie. LOL. What….you think this is BET Comic view or something? This aint no audition for a comedy show…bro…but you do crack me up.
Scott,
I’m not really disappointed with Noah; he’s all right with me. I just have to push him a little bit. His heart is in the right place, he just has a long way to go. He seems to be a hard working and thoughtful brother and I respect that. The problem is that, everything he says I’ve heard before; in fact, I know what he’s going to say before he even starts pounding frenetically on his Dell.
He’s funny too, especially when he becomes unhinged. His last post had me laughing so hard I nearly fell out of my Le Corbusier office chair. He called me a “superficial Fugly MOFO,” and a “black Barney Fife looking and acting mufu,” – you gotta’ love that! Ebonics have never been so entertaining!
It’s been clearly established that Noah is not interested in reparations. This forum is merely a delivery device for him to articulate his nihilism, powerlessness, hatred, and defeatist attitude. He and the band of “cyber-dopes” he hangs out with are more interested in “pissing white folks off,” than they are dedicated to actually doing something about American racism. When challenged he just crumbles into embarrassing rationalisms. But I love it anyway.
Brothers like him are always the ones that talk all this anti-white shit, and then cultivate this pathetic sheepish grin around white folks. He’s a big talking Pan African windbag at home and when hiding out on the web, but at work I’m sure he’s just a shivering, kowtowing little creep. You know… Mr. Powerlessness! I can see you right now, sitting in the employee lunchroom munching on your PB & J and grumbling angrily under your breath about your white-Devil of a boss. But of course, you’re too much of a sissy to stand up for yourself.
Despite your lameness, I’m mostly troubled by the victim mentality on this blog however. As someone who has been “involved” (that’s right Noah, INVOLVED) with civil rights for some time, I loathe the rhetoric of black powerlessness. I’ve never seen someone who claims to love black culture as much as Noah does, say such things. I find it contradictory, but mostly depressing. I have no tolerance for this kind of attitude. Black people must start talking straight to each other, and take personal responsibility for their actions. That is not letting the white man off the hook; conversely, it’s acknowledging that our future is in our hands. We don’t need the white man’s handouts to clean our own house.
Reparations aren’t divisive because they will piss white folks off; they’re divisive because they do not redress inequity across the board. It will merely exacerbate pre-existing tensions, including: the ever-growing class rift amongst African-Americans; the increasing distrust between ethnic and racial minorities; the tensions between those of any race living below the poverty line; the tensions created by those whom are exploited by the labor trade, etc. etc. etc. Compensating blacks for historical misdeeds does not have to manifest itself in an essentialist, and divisive plan.
No, Noah, you are full of shit because you have no plan (or even an interest in a plan). You’re a coward who hides behind his family and makes excuses for all of your shortcomings. You have chosen powerlessness (which you brag about), and you’re a pussy at that. Don’t start trying to grow a set of balls now… you’re not articulate and erudite enough for that. Within my chosen field I certainly do wield power, and I have decided to use that power (in tandem with others like myself) for the common good. Scott and I don’t have to single-handedly transform the black condition, but at least we have agency, we’re involved, and mobilized around our chosen cause. You on the other hand… well; we all know how you feel abut yourself.
I swear Noah; you are one of the saddest, sickest colored men I have ever encountered. Your ultimate diss is to start calling everyone powerless (I have never met a so-called Pan Africanist that considered himself and “all” black people powerless). No fool, you have chosen powerlessness, but your disease does not affect us all. I have power because I have chosen it. I have educated myself on the elite level, and I use what I have cultivated to help other black folks (and all oppressed peoples). That is power my friend…! You have chosen a path that so many black men choose; you have given up and conceded to racism.
Yes, Noah, you have certainly recognized and embraced your limitations. And it’s a good thing that other African-Americans, both past and present, refused to acknowledge them. Otherwise you’d just be another shuffling, grinning, house Negro with a broken spirit.
And don’t worry about when the “United Task Force Against Domestic Inequality” becomes a part of the public consciousness. You’ll find out in the same way that all the armchair revolutionary, no plan-in-sight, Black Nationalist windbags; and self-imposed, powerless, limit having, losers do… you can read about it in the newspaper.
Renu
Reparations aren’t divisive because they will piss white folks off; they’re divisive because they do not redress inequity across the board.
And since when has restitution/reparations been such an undertaking with such a responsibility?
Where is your ACROSS the board language when you talk about Native Americans? Where was/is the across the board language when Japanese Americans got reparations for their internment?
You and SCOTT were quick to comment about what Reparations did or didn't do for Native Americans but there one not a single word about it being "DIVISIVE" because they got something so one else didn't get, etc., etc.
So, it's clear you've erect pure and utter BULLSHIT and expect that shit to be treated as gold with it's a turd... as if we can't smell that shit from miles away.
Compensating blacks for historical misdeeds does not have to manifest itself in an essentialist, and divisive plan.
And no one (Whites or any ethnic group or groups) has to see Blacks getting REPARATIONS as some reason to feel that it's "divisive". You know, what exactly would they based their pettiness on except the fact that:
[1] They are too chicken shit to stand up to White Supremacy and demand JUST compensation for their own, on their own; or
[2] They really have an issue with the White Supremacy Apple Cart and Racial Hierarchy being upset because Blacks will "get something their not getting" and there is no way they want to be behind Blacks...
I could go on but this House Of Cards of yours fell long ago. The fact that you want to take issue with REPARATIONS as if you don't know what the hell the concept is and has always been only manifest some other bullshit you got in your head.
Again, no one has to perceive REPARATIONS for African-Americans as "DIVISIVE" and the only reason... THE ONLY REASON the can or do is direct related to the REACISM that dwells within American society.
Americans aren't calling the funds spent to Rebuild Iraq "DIVISIVE" even though the know for sure that American Domestic INEQUALITIES are intact and haven't been addressed by the Iraqi policy. And, again, we can talk about all the other Reparations cases.
It really only shows your ISSUES when REPARATIONS = DIVISIVE only is cast in that vain when it comes to African-Americans. Such an idea cannot be separated from American RACISM. And, as the Anti-Racist I've cited suggests, this notion of yours RENU is nothing but one of many manifestations of it. So, run after other minorities all you want but they won't save you from you ridiculous notions and patented, hypocritical contradictions or uneven standards.
But take your punk ass back to that LIE about Malcolm X. I quoted him for you. What did he say? Where is your list of the INTELLECTUALS who support your mindless BS?
Nothing about REPARATIONS precludes Multi-Racial organizing around eliminating inequalities. The fact that you want to eliminate REPARATIONS in lieu of your BS shows that you really are the enemy of Black people.
Again, you have presented on thing about changing the POWER RELATIONSHIPS or how you propose to restructure American Democracy. In fact, you hope, you intend to LEGITIMATE it.
You can't deal with "inequalities" without systematic changes. RADICAL CHANGES IN THE STRUCTURE OF AMERICAN SOCIETY.
So, I'm still waiting to see what your "Task Force" has to say about that, especially since you are at odds with other ANTI-RACISTS.
BTW, you can say "essentialism" until you're blue in the face... but that and none of the shit you say can cover the illogical ideas you have and the inherent contradictions in your narrow, EUROPEAN adopted EITHER OR conception.
The very idea of calling Reparations "DIVISIVE" is nothing but the most vile manifestation of RACISM. Now, all-of-a-sudden restitution/reparations becomes "divisive" and is suppose to address ALL inequality.
Sounds like poor Whites, other minorities, etc. better step up their game. African-Americans already played the role of VANGUARD during the Civil Rights Era... We didn't see poor Whites running to challenge inequality then. Neither did they do it during Slavery. And they (their would-be advocates) love to talk about how poor Whites conditions/value was worst than slaves.
Well, the fact of American History shows that Whites, poor or otherwise, have bought into White Supremacy and they're not ones who are going to let it go. So, this solidarity and coalition thing isn't going to go anywhere until you deal with that hard core truth.
And it's clear see from your own articulation that this is nothing but White Supremacy talking through you. If you're truly against and want to eradicate inequality then you can't really have anything against Reparations.
That fact is clear in how you've been less than vocal about inequalities otherwise.
Everything you say is SEE THROUGH... But maybe you can straighten that shit once you tell me why you're on the opposite side of the ANTI-RACIST equation where you're at odds with some pretty well published ones.
I’m not really disappointed with Noah; he’s all right with me. I just have to push him a little bit.
Given the fact that your cyber-identity here seems to change with the seasons... given the fact that you are quick not to deal with things that contradict your ill-conceived (and poorly conceived) ideas... given the fact that you've just shown yourself to be POMPOUS and revealed how utterly unscrupolous your are -- given your answer to the very first question posed to you on this thread.... GIVEN ALL THE SHIT YOU'VE SAID has been said before and you are POWERLESS to answer questions directed at your flawed assumptions and ill-fated notions...
GIVEN all of that... you know you have nothing else to say. Again, I draw your PUNK ASS attention to what Malcolm X said in his own words about "brotherhood" and coalition building.... and you can direct some of your attention to how it is you stand outside of what the ANTI-RACISTS I'm aware of have to say about REPARATIONS and Multi-Racial organizing.
STEP THE FUCK UP, Renu...
You've still shown yourself too weak, too unprepared and way too ill-equipped in applying all this knowledge you claim to have into a consistent ideology without mounds of contradictions and silly sentimental rhetoric that can withstand logical scrutiny.
If you like and can appreciate me calling you a FUGLY MOFO…then let me say it agin..use be ah FUGLY MOFO. Of course, I am referring to the substance of your argument, notwithstanding its grammatical proficiency. However, you might be a FUGLY MOFO visually as well…but I cannot bare witness to that.
Its amazing how people PROJECT (look up the clinical psychological definition of this Renu…for I want you to fully understand what you suffer from). Noting cause and effect has nothing to do with hate and being anti-white. Demonstrate to me how reciting the truths of history and the white impact upon black people, is Hate and anti-white? I challenge you? Don’t bother…because you will fail…because you can’t. That is simply more literary masturbation of all form and no substance in truth.
The truth is that the only thing that I hate is the condition of poverty of the black masses of the world. I am anti-these conditions…..not anti-white. What you accuse me of being guilty of, without the ability to bare witness to my heart, life and behavior, means you must be PROJECTING from the template of your on heart, life and behavior past or present, for you cannot bare witness to Jack about my life…except for faulty grammar LOL and that’s what you need to stick with…because it is the ONLY truth that you have spoken on this blog.
For your information, one of the things that my co-workers tell me is that I should smile more and be more “open” and communicative. However, I am not that way because I am anti-white or hate whites…I am that way because that demeanor helped me to survive the community I grew up in. It is just the way Its just social conditioning bro, so nope, your arse is WRONG again, but you used perfect grammar and spelled proficiently, notwithstanding, I am sure you think your grammarian more than makes up for being totally WRONG.
Saying that you have been involved in Civil rights means nothing. Trent Lott was also involved in Civil rights…..he was involved fighting against it. Save those ambiguous unqualified statements for your book club…LOL. They will be impressed by it…as long as you use the proper grammar.
You are the one who is obviously a scared to death Negro. I can see you as a youth avoiding confrontation with someone who has just taken your lunch money. I can see you now….in perfect grammatical form explaining to your friends why it is just best to let the bullies take your money…because confronting them for their wrongs and defending your rights…will only exacerbate tensions. “Come on pal…cannot we all just get along?”. To which the bully replies…”Suck my ding a ling you little poo butt” LoL. Now as an adult, you practice the same aversion of standing up for RIGHT, because you fear division, tensions and getting your arse whooped. Hey…I would rather get my arse whooped standing up for right….than to make peace with those punking me out. But hey…that me…you can knock yourself out bro. Let me know when you are eating lunch so I can come get it LOL.
If it knocks you out to believe I have no plan or don’t care about reparations…go ahead and believe that, because that is something that you cannot prove. Why spend so much time arguing a point that you can never bare witness to prove out? Its just a false pretext for more of your literary masturbation. You should have blue balls or vagina) by now.
Hey…hows that book deal coming? I am sure that someone of your literary acumen has certainly been published….after all you have a Le Corbusier office chair…LOL…you must be SOMEBODY…LOL. You killllll me dog.
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