June 22, 2005

My FICO

I am sure that for certain people, what I am about to note is common knowledge, however, for me it was a lesson and paradigm shift away from the conditioning of being broke. Within the last six months, I have taken my Fair Isaacs Credit Organization (FICO) score from the low 600’s to above 700. How did I do it? I simply paid my bills on time.

You see, what I used to think is that as long as I paid the current bill before the next bill was due, that the payment was not late. You see, the habits and conditioning of me being broke for so long, lead me to hold off paying my bills as long as possible. I used to figure that as long as I paid within that “Grace” window, beyond which it goes on your credit rating as a late payment, that my credit would not be penalized. However, I was wrong.

I guess what I did not know was that you are rewarded for on time payments, just as you are penalized for late payments. Consequently, if you pay in the grace period, it does not count for or against you in the calculation, except for the fact that you can never reach the upper range of score without a good history of on time payments. If you were never reported “late” to the credit agencies, and never reported “on time” your score will never get above the 600’s. That was my problem. I had a habit, formed from being broke, of paying bills before they were reported late to the credit agencies.

Your credit score is one of the most important numbers in your financial life. Over a lifetime, having a good credit score can literally save you tens of thousands of dollars in interest charges. In the environment that I was reared the importance of good credit was not taught and certainly the hints and tricks of the “secret algorithm/formula” used by FICO were no where to be found. Consequently, the synergy of lack of information and deprivation of cash lead to behavior that some would characterize as irresponsible. However, my personal definition of irresponsibility is when one if fully informed and understands the consequences, yet makes the bad choice and can’t live with it.

I used to be so broke, that only recently have I started filling my car up with gas. I used to never put more than 5 dollars in my car at a time. I would prefer to have money in my pocket than gas in my car. Plus, the car I was driving was likely to break down and I did not want it to break down on a full tank of gas that I could not use, which would be a waste of money, I rationalized. Even when I stopped struggling and begin to earn a decent wage, I continued that habit for a few years, as well as the habit of waiting until the last minute to pay my bills.

This Oped is mainly informational to those who may be as in the dark as I was about credit and how to potentially improve on your score. Over the last few years, I have had more than enough money to cover my expenses several times over. However, the old paradigms formed from the lack of information and struggling did not end until I was looking to refinance out of a ballooning Adjustable rate mortgage (ARM). I was looking for a way to improve my score and could not understand why my score was not improving, despite not having late payments (by credit union reporting). This is when I learned more about the FICO calculation.

Hopefully, some people who are struggling with low credit scores and falling victims to predatory lending and high interest rates, will read this a learn of a quick way to boost your credit score. Knowledge is power. For those who think I believe that I know it all….this should be an indication that I do not. However, thinks I don’t know about…..I don’t talk about…unlike some people. A little knowledge can be very destructive. The reason being is that the biggest threat to a truth is often a greater truth.

46 Comments:

At 11:06 PM, Blogger Scott said...

ROFL: You are talking about the white man keeping you down. And you haven't even shown the basics of personal responsinbility like paying your bills on time.

Damm.....

Well, I will assume your friends are as irresponsible as you, and don't know how to go to the local public library and pick up a copy of personal finance for dummies. (highly recommended book btw) So at least this post is a little biy helpful if you have no clue about how the world works.

 
At 6:30 AM, Blogger Noah TA said...

You might be ROFL, but I would bet my current financial position is superior to yours. I am not ashamed of NOT knowing, then learning, then changing my outlook and behavior based upon what I have learned. What qualifies me, above you, to speak in regards to black poverty and social problems is that I have come from where they have and I understand what keeps many from doing certain things. In my case, it was not the lack of responsibility; it was the lack of knowledge. The reason that I posted this is because I KNOW there are MANY more people who do not KNOW how things work.

That having been said, you can PRETEND that you are financially savvy and have a good credit score…but you have no way of proving to anyone here. Everyone here knows that you are salivating to have something over authors of this blog so that you can attempt to use it to gain credibility and for me to lose credibility. You would like for people to think that sense Noah did not know about FICO formulas, then everyone should now question how much he knows about the other things he has talk about.

You see, I know I have ideological enemies who are looking for means to discredit me. I wrote this FICO piece knowing full well that people like YOU and RENU would likely try to use it against me. However, my main goal is to get good valid information out to black people. I am not concerned about mental amebas like you using my mistakes or lack of knowledge against me.

 
At 6:46 AM, Blogger Noah TA said...

Scott Said in the essay “Hate” below:
“But I did leave out the most damming evidence that this is a hate site and that is that you have NO postive message. There is no love here, no each one teach one. No volunteer at you local church. Nothing no plan. Just Whitey this whitey that.”

Scott Said, In response to my FICO FYI:
“ROFL: You are talking about the white man keeping you down. And you haven't even shown the basics of personal responsinbility like paying your bills on time.”

The contradiction here is that Scott says we don’t offer anything positive or information. Yet, when I present some helpful information, given that millions of people, black and white, suffer from bad credit scores….he shows his appreciation via faking that he is ROFL. Is that not a demonstration of each-one-teach-one, if not many? Yet, Scott attempts to ostracize and belittle me because of it? Where is the love Scott? Maybe this is a hate site because of your negative contributions.

 
At 7:35 AM, Blogger Scott said...

Noah as I said in my first post on theis thread "So at least this post is a little biy helpful if you have no clue about how the world works."

So I was giving you props for actually providing something positive. Even as I made fun of you.

But the fact that this may be news to people shows just how far we have to go in educating ourselves to take care of our own basic needs.

I am personally happy for you that you are trying to get out of the ARM trap.

But paying you bills on time is basic fundamental skill. If you can't you should be charged higher interest rates because you are a greater credit risk.

 
At 7:54 AM, Blogger Scott said...

I think economic literacy is very very important and that why I gave you some props on sharing this.

I actually started working on one for poor people. Most books are written for middle class people, but those who are poor need more education to achieve.

This is/was the start.
http://www.wealthleague.com/
http://www.wealthleague.com/lottery.html
http://www.wealthleague.com/saving.html

 
At 8:18 AM, Blogger Noah TA said...

Oh…don’t try and slither out of it…you contradicted yourself. If you are making fun of me, you are making fun of everyone who honestly DOESN’T KNOW. The question is who teaches that? It is not taught in K-12 and it’s not taught in college. You say this is basic knowledge…well how so….is it an instinct that one is born with….if not…then it needs to be taught or learned.

My parents did not teach me about my FICO score and how credit scores were calculated. All I was taught is that if you owe someone, you pay them, which I did. Know one told me that paying within the grace window….actually counted against me. Its kind of like a game show were the correct answer adds to your score and the incorrect answer subtracts and no answer does neither. Paying in the grace period is the equivalent of a “non” answer and you can’t get a good score with a “non” answer. Lots of people don’t know this and many people are in such a financial struggle that often they have to choose between food, rent or paying other bills on time. I had to make this decision plenty of times in my past, obviously you have not.

Lenders don’t make much interest income or profit from people with good credit. They are thus dependant upon people with marginal credit scores to make their biggest interest profit. This is why FICO is in collusion with Banks and Lenders and this is why the FORMULA of FICO calculation is not public knowledge. These companies profit from the lack of knowledge of people about credit. I always paid my bills; I was rarely reported late to credit agencies. So I take exception with your characterization that I was irresponsible for not paying my bills on time. The problem was that I was working from an erroneous definition of on time. I assumed that if it was not reported “late” to the credit agencies, then by default it was considered on time. Intuitively, a person is either on time or they are late. I never knew there was a middle ground.

That having been said, your response was very HATEFUL and NEGATIVE….yet you want to throw out the accusation that this is a hate blog. Just because the term white and black are used often in this blog, that does not constitute hate. There was over 300 years of history in this land predicated upon racial classification. One cannot discuss this history and its effect upon today, without using racial terminology, if one want to talk regarding specifics and not vague generalities.

 
At 11:42 AM, Blogger Scott said...

You are correct I was mean to you. To bad, you have been mean to me too. Be a man and suck it up.

And my post about you being all negative was made before your current post, and that is why I gave you credit for saying its a little bit helpful.

Even basic info on credit reports says "pay bills on time". That means by due date. Its pretty clear. You were trying rationalize getting over. We all have done it, thinking because you are not penalized that what you are doing is ok. Well it isn't.

Anyway here is more info.
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/credit/scoring.htm

BTW you are right there are unwritten rules to success in the US. That they don't teach you in school. That is why you need to read books and teach yourself those rules.

Maybe I will go back to my plan of finacial advisors for poor people since even a know it all like you can be ignorant on basic economic facts.

And I do repect you for putting yourself out there and sharing this. That doesn't mean I don't get to laugh at you. If I didn't mock you there would be no courage required in you sharing your weaknesses.

 
At 12:56 PM, Blogger Noah TA said...

No, you obviously don’t much about FICO at this date. Everyone knows that bills have DUE Dates. What people don’t know is the relationship between when a payment is received and its impact upon your FICO score. The formula and algorithm for calculation of FICO is SECRET. You claim that it is basic knowledge is BS, because its not. It’s kept secret for a purpose, which is the prevention of manipulation by consumers to gain the advantage over lenders. It’s kept secret to give lenders the advantage.

Even if you send your payment off in the mail, before its due date, it may arrive and not be POSTED until after your due date. How will you know? Because it is paid within the “grace” window, the creditor will not make mention of it. The thing to know is that you must have your payment in before the creditor reports to the credit agency. If you get it in before that date, it is then considered an on time payment. If a payment is not in by the next time the creditor reports to the agency, then it recorded in your file as a late payment. Data is collected once a month by FICO, for each creditor. This is not common knowledge, regardless of what you say.

Many people pay on the due dates, because they have the cash to do so, not because they understand how FICO calculations work. People who struggle and live paycheck to paycheck often run into situations were they cannot pay on the due date without sacrificing groceries, rent, utilities or something else.

Don’t get it twisted about how well read I am. What I have said is that I do not read books which are OPINIONS or life stories of others. I read plenty of instructional and technical literature. Because I don’t go around reading and regurgitating the opinion of others stored in published text does not mean that I don’t read.

One of your many flaws, Scott, is that you cannot see the Forrest for the trees. You judge the whole forest by the tree of you. You cannot think outside the box of your own life and experience, to realize that you cannot use your own life to judge others.

You obviously did not know about what I a lamenting Scott. Do you know how I know… Because you did not articulate… you just posted links after doing a quick googling. I could have done that…that’s not the point because its after the fact. Most people do not investigate or seek out understanding of how everything works until they have bad or marginal credit, but by that time, they likely have been given a high interest loan.

I really don’t care that you laughed or were Nasty towards me. I expect that of you. I just wanted to point it out to so how contradictory you are. Of course you would say that you posted your commentary before you read this essay, but you have no way of proving that.

 
At 6:25 PM, Blogger NmagiNATE said...

SCOTT, unless you can show us where NOAH said something about "The WHITE MAN" doesn't want to give me credit on GP (credit) then your White ASS Sucking and White Interference Running bullshit ass comments have no bearing.

And we no they don't.

This just shows the weakness of your ideology. Seems to me you try to act like you're all about people taking responsibility and being accountable but, as noted, you have NO PLAN or even any conversation about holding White America or rather the "system" accountable for shit. And then you wonder why you are referred to as a NEGRO CON.

At least be consistent with the so-called principles you proclaim you're about. And, yes, apply that shit across the board. Or do your White CON PARTY MATES including your White Supremacists Ideological BUTT BUDDIES have your ass on lockdown?

A Negro CON bet(ter) not say nothing 'bout the White Man... if he knows what's best for him. Living Proof that some NEGROES, like so many in history, KNOW and STAY IN "THEIR" PLACE.

All I ask SCOTT, since you want to be a Contrarian... don't be selective. Keep being "contrary" when you've backed yourself into the usual corner that you do.

I'll look but where is/was your demonstration of how things said here, not only amounts to "HATE" as if that has some self-evident meaning (self-evident proof), but how things said here are the functional parallels to things said on White Supremacists sites?

Again, those are you ideological BUTT BUDDIES. On Affirmative Action, Vouchers, you name it (off your party plat...) their all off in your ass on that.

Same shit if I ever seen it. lol

 
At 2:08 PM, Blogger Maya Frida said...

Thanks for the info Noah. Recently my credit score went down from about a 700 to a 600-something. I did not even know if that was good or bad! haha.

Anyway, this kind of helpful information is what I like about this blog (thanks Noah and Faheem). You give the posts a good mix so people can learn and thing about different things that face our lives.

I am Mexican and I still get so much out of reading these blogs becuase not only do they relate to black folks, but to all working-class people - my people. Our people's struggles have many similiarities.

I think it's ridiculous that these idiots think that what we do not know makes us lose all credibility as honest and intelligent people.

I don't know how to change a tire so does that make anything else that I know about the struggles of my people irrevelent??!?!?! No!!!

So continue to spread the love and knowledge bro, and don't waste your time arguing with these fools.

Peace and thanks again for the info. :)

 
At 12:54 PM, Blogger Scott said...

Here is another helpful hint. Don't buy lottery tickets.

Also move out of the stone age and stop putting bills in the mail.

Get free online bill payment and make sure your bill arrive before the due data.
http://www.wamu.com/personal/default.asp

 
At 1:28 PM, Blogger Noah TA said...

Scott, the least among us bro. Lots of black people do not have ready accesss to a computer where they can pay their bills online. We need to provide information that will benefit EVERYONE...not just people on our situation...with PC access at home and at work.

 
At 1:49 PM, Blogger Scott said...

Anyone can use the internet even without owning a computer.

There is the public library. Many people have them at work.

You can go to a friends house.

All of which are free.

 
At 6:16 AM, Blogger Noah TA said...

Thats true Scott...but believe me...that is still an impediment for many people. None of my closest high school friends are computer literate. I have been trying to get some of them to purchase a computer to get over their fears. I live in Minnesota and they live in Michigan and they cannot come over my house and use the PC.

Again Scott, I would be very cautious about making assumptions about what other people can do, based upon your options. Lots of people are not ever computer literate.

 
At 8:52 AM, Blogger Scott said...

I have one question. Is racism holding them back or are they holding themselves back.

Racism could dissapear from their lives today. And they will still be behind because they are unwilling to adapt and compete.

In 1994 when I started doing online bill payment I was ahead of the curve. I even had to pay for it. I did it because I knew was unreliable about paying my bills on time.

Basically once a month I would pay my bills, sometimes less than that.

In 1994 I got checkfree and put my bills on automatic payment. Now I check my bills about once every 6 months and my credit is solid.

Anyway I hope you continue to post about things that people can do to improve themselves financially.

 
At 12:07 PM, Blogger NmagiNATE said...

Racism could dissapear from their lives today. And they will still be behind because they are unwilling to adapt and compete.

And, SCOTT, we can all "adapt and compete" and RACISM from the past and present would still be a factor.

But then again, let my guy from another forum says, you're one of those Negroes Who Are Willing To Let That Shit Go On The House. And then have the nerve to be upset by being called a Negro-CON.

And please tell us, How come our parents and our parents parents, etc., etc. and so forth weren't adapted to help us ALL be better adapted?

Again, you're willing to let that shit go On The House. So, it's like what manner of Principle do you stand on, especially when you will dare to feigning a position with LIP SERVICE ONLY that you acknowledge racism, past, present (and future).

 
At 6:35 AM, Blogger Noah TA said...

Its amazing to me how Scott judges everything based upon the template of his personal life. Scott seems to feel that his life is the microcosm of black life, if not all human life.

The first thing you need to realize, Scott, is that racism is why we exist here. It was racial slavery that brought the African to America and thus all descendants of slaves existence in America is linked to white racism. The fact of the matter is YES, there is a high probability that the fact that these people are not computer literate is linked to white racism, past or present. They all lived in racially segregated neighborhoods and attended poor schools, as did I. One of my best friends, who are computer illiterate, grew up in the public housing projects. He was by far the smartest male in our grade class. After high School, I moved down to Atlanta for a bit, to attend college and later asked him if he wanted to come down, because he was in a bad situation of killing or being killed, in the projects. So then he came down and was working for about a year and preparing to try to get into a community college. That is when his mother died and left his disabled younger brother without anyone to care for him. So he dropped everything going for himself to go back and take care of his little brother. He sacrificed everything for his brother….whom he did not want to see go into a State home. He has been living in the projects caring for his brother every since. I am not using that as an excuse for him not being computer literate, but simply as a demonstration of his life is and was so different than yours, that you are not qualified to past judgment.

 
At 7:29 AM, Blogger Scott said...

lear, Noah you don't' believe anyone should judge anyone. But we should pay cash money for anyone who can't take care of themselves.

How can they system be sustainable ?

And NmagiNATE I don't believe in "To Let That Shit Go On The House" I personally believe very strongly in reparation I have a series of post on it on my blog. I even quoted some wisdom from Noah in the series.

Does my vision of wrong done to us match your exactly of course not.

But I believe that the debt America has to its black citizens need to be repayed.

But I also acknowledge that we can get ahead without that debt being repaid. The debt is a matter of justice not a matter of survival and thriving.

All of you who say you lived in the hood, how often do you see people droping $20 plus a week on lottery tickets. $20 week is the price of a very nice computer. People have options.

 
At 8:21 AM, Blogger Noah TA said...

It seems like I recall reading somewhere “Judge not….”. The truth of the matter is that only God can bare an accurate witness in order past accurate judgment.

I don’t have a problem paying taxes to support poor people, if the monies are used properly to promote incentives for independence. I think that many people are under a fallacy that spending less on the poor will increase money in their pocket through tax savings. Well, it certainly will cost the tax payer to build prisons, feed and house prisoners and poor people term to crime after being socially cut of from aid. It certainly will add to higher insurance and product cost as poor people turn more to criminality, due to a lack of opportunity for jobs and no government aid. People will pay indirectly or directly for the problems of the poor in America.

 
At 8:58 AM, Blogger Scott said...

"promote incentives for independence"

What aid do you think falls under that title. Do housing projects? Does TANF?
Does food stamps ?

Please tell me about 1 program for the poor that promotes independence except for the EITC ?

 
At 9:24 AM, Blogger Noah TA said...

That’s not the issue Scott. The cheapest solutions are to do nothing or to give handouts. The most expensive solution is a comprehensive policy that deals with the components of aid, incentives and oversight, which are not a one size fits all approach. Such a program and policy is the most expensive to implement, but would offer the best results. You cannot implement such a needed approach if you believe in small government and reducing monies to the poor. Public aid is kind of like penicillin in that if you prescribe it, you have to prescribe in a dosage that is sure to eradicate the virus, lest the virus mutate into resistance strains. When the nation attempt to treat socioeconomic viruses, it must prescribe enough money to wipe out the virus, lest the virus mutates. Thus, the political back and forth and middle group for prescribing treatment works against the cure.

 
At 6:26 PM, Blogger NmagiNATE said...

I personally believe very strongly in reparation...

SCOTT, we've already had this conversation too! Quite some time ago. And I noted how what you now call your "It's About JUSTICE. Not Need Or Survival." position was actually one that was more academic than determined.

I was clear to point out the mockery in your views. Your position (at least then) was like you didn't care one way or the other. And please have the balls to cease with the non-issues.

An argument can be made on the very basis of the point NOAH is trying to drive home to you here: That the world does not revolve around YOU (you and your situation NOT being a template for others). Our survival and thriving can very well be secured by Reparations. What type of interventions are going to turn around the mass incarceration trends in our communities? And we can go down the list. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY isn't going to that much for it can only do so much for situations that are not solely the product of individual failures.

I believe NOAH/FAHEEM made a point out of the silly notion of WORKING TWICE AS HARD. While an admirable and, no doubt, righteous personal goal, this type of pathology has people like you expecting Black people to be superhuman. To be un-HUMAN and to have absolutely no faults. Such is your logic.

In your mind if Black people would just be perfect then we would have nothing to "complain" about. So it is our fault that we are not perfect. The "White Man" has nothing to do with that!

............... STUPID!!

SCOTT, talking about Reparations, at best, is only part of this.

What part of RACISM past *and* PRESENT did you NOT understand?
What part of holding *THE SYSTEM* accountable did you NOT understand?


So, not only does your "vision" not align with mine but you have yet to approach addressing MOST of what I spoke about. Now, couple that with your curiously loosely held conviction with respect to Reparations (again, referring to your mockery made about it some time ago)... and, as far as I can see, you essentially DON'T HOLD WHITE AMERICA, the US GOVERNMENT (aka "the system") accountable for shit.

I don't see you requiring White People to be "perfect", even as you demand Black People to be "perfect".

You act as if Black people themselves sustain the Lottery systems and all sorts of American vice all by their damn selves.

To be honest, your views really do align so much with White CONservatives and White Supremacists alike. But you're in a lot of Black Company too. The NOI, for one (or at least some of its members), are quick to talk about cigarettes and Lottery type stuff too. Hmmm....

Oh but there is a difference though, the BLACK NATIONALIST tradition while being strong in its criticism of Black Vice (and being strong in rehabilitating... and strong in SELF-HELP...)... that socially conservative element in Black Nationalism also has strong criticism of the US, White America about things in the past and TODAY. First and foremost, whether their vision comport with mine or not they, unlike you, DEMAND THAT THE SYSTEM CHANGE... You, on the other hand, are willing to LET THAT SHIT GO and all the current racism that's skimming shit right off the top!

Maybe this will give you a clue (below). I'm sure in your conception of Reparations you've really considered how to stem the tide of RACISM TODAY. And with all that talk of INDEPENDENCE, I'm sure that figures in on every aspect of your conception of Reparations.

Continuing Theft of Labor Today
http://www.millionsforreparations.com/feagin.html

And, yeah... your "SEGREGATED SCHOOL" hyperlink brings it all back. Either on your blog or on PEG K's (or somewhere) an old blog-post of yours referencing Boris I. Bittker was exactly the one where you displayed your "I don't really (personally) care" attitude about Reparations.

Me? I'm the first one to say I don't need Reparations and I don't support Cash Checks. But I'm not going to pretend, for your convenience here, that the Situation Isn't Critical. Seems like in any other post you would be trying to paint that picture (of the reality of a number of African-Americans).

When you come with some full frontal challenges TO THE SYSTEM... then you can talk. And I could care less whether yours are exactly like mine. But it's clear you are the same time of Accomodationist, Assimilationist, Integrationist that your Liberal, Democratic Black brothers are. ALL believing in and acquiescing to... "THE SYSTEM"... demanding (essentially) nothing.

 
At 7:07 PM, Blogger Scott said...

NmagiNATE you play at being hard, but tell me one thing you have done to force the system to change. Or one thing you have done the HELP other black people.

Just one of each and I will shut the fuck up.

But to me you seem to have an excuse for everyone wether they are honest or criminal. Like we are animals who can't make our own decisions. And who shouldn't be held responsible for our decisions.

The fact we live in a racist country DOES NOT absolve us of personal responibility.

 
At 6:48 AM, Blogger Noah TA said...

“The fact we live in a racist country DOES NOT absolve us of personal responibility.”

True, but it is also true that being personally responsible will not absolve the effects born from living in a racist country either. Responsibility and irresponsibility is not a phenomenon bound by color, for it manifest in all racist equally, lest one assumes some sort of genetic propensity for the character trait (do you scott?). Even if racism is a human trait and not endemic to race, white’s economical, numerical and hence political advantage constitutes a power that cannot be offset by black racism. Consequently, white racism oppresses and causes the socioeconomic dislocation and differential…..not black irresponsibility.

 
At 10:40 AM, Blogger NmagiNATE said...

SCOTT!! You Play At Being DUMB!!

“The fact we live in a racist country DOES NOT absolve us of personal responibility.”

Retreating to that dumbass and still unfounded position (i.e. you won't find and haven't pointed out where anyone has preached Absolution...) won't save you. Trying to make this personal and about something other than what's written here and the positions taken here... won't save you.

STAY ON TASK and on the TOPIC!!

SCOTT, you never substantiated where NOAH made or ever has taken the silly type of position you wanted to claim his positions amounted to. Again, when did NOAH (or me or Faheem) say some bullshit like this: "The WHITE MAN is holding me down by not giving credit even when I got/had bad credit... They Know I'm Good. Or should just on GP. Don't let me bring up Slavery"

Remember the first thing out of your mouth?

ROFL: You are talking about the white man keeping you down. And you haven't even shown the basics of personal responsinbility like paying your bills on time.

The one has NOTHING to do with the other... yet your tormented and sorry ass has to make those trumped up and false correlations in order for you to make the most unfounded position, saying some bullshit about Absolution.

My critique of your BULLSHIT -- "It's about JUSTICE (which it is) Not About Need/Survival" -- is on point. In all your Accentuating The Positive, you have deluded yourself in thinking and, therefore, dismissing things that are beyond INDIVIDUALS.

What you have promoted is what I call the classic MANUMISSION Approach To Liberation.

Your WEAK ASS takes the position that WE SHOULD BUY OUR FREEDOM. And since "the system" - i.e. via opportunities - allows us (most of us) to take advantage of MANUMISSION then It's Our Fault If We Don't "Buy" Our Freedom... which, the last time I checked... is suppose to be FREE!!!

So where are your principles?
Ummm... Please note, taking such a position presents NO CHALLENGES to or demands on "the system". It accepts it AS-IS.

So, in effect, you have ABSOLVED the US GOv't and WHITE AMERICA for still violating our Human Rights To Be FREE From Oppression which in this case is the FREEDOM FROM Black Disadvantage, to say the least... which requires the dismantling of WHITE SUPREMACY and, most importantly, the White Privilege to where they don't have to pay FREEDOM DUES (i.e. Manumission).

Now do you want to talk about ideas or not?

You want to make claims. Substantiate them. But do get all Sissy Like when we make claims about your position and back them up in logically formidable ways that you can't contend with.

Now, you're the one who tried to say you're position on Reparations satisfied my claim against. Now, all of a sudden, once you realize it doesn't and the very basis of you ideology is challenged you want to talk about things outside of the ideas talked about on this blog.

Typical... Typical change-the-subject, evasiveness...

No, SCOTT... let's keep talking about whose ideas says what and who is Absolving What. Again, the Black Nationalist tradition got the Black self-help and self-reliance thing on lock. And has been that way for a long time.

It's you CONservative Blacks, you Black CONservatives that are JOHNNY COME LATELY'S.

And I've already challenged you, RENALDO and anyone else to show me how much Black CONservatives as a group have done to change the object condition or really if they have done anywhere close to the very people, ideologies they (you) like to criticized.

And... I still waiting...

 
At 10:47 AM, Blogger NmagiNATE said...

But to me you seem to have an excuse for everyone wether they are honest or criminal. Like we are animals who can't make our own decisions. And who shouldn't be held responsible for our decisions.

Don't talk about what my views "SEEM" like. Be bold. Tell me what they are like by logically deconstructing WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID... not how your twist and perceive what I said... to fit your ideology or the fact that I don't agree with your sorry ideology.

ALL the personal responsibility in the world isn't going to solve our problems. CASE IN POINT!!

ALL our problems are not individual problems. There are systematic, institutional, structural problems that exists in an interplay with and Over & Above the ones born of individual failure or lack of motivation.

Seriously? Do the individual failure or successes of Whites account for their collective condition/prosperity?

This is a question Noah/Faheem had RENU stomped by... I think you took the day off... I wonder why?

 
At 10:54 AM, Blogger NmagiNATE said...

And SCOTT, please don't try that lame "WE CAN'T" bullshit with me.

I'm a Black Nationalist in philosophy. I have more faith in Black people than you ever dreamed of. Not that I hold this belief... but if Black people were to fashion their own, our own Separate Nation... I have full faith that we would succeed despite whatever difficulties.

I know you do not...

I have the faith and analytical skills to know we can make good decisions especially when the White Supremacy Dynamics are changed.

So don't you ever question my belief in my people and their abilities. Again, you're talking to someone who believes in a long tradition that makes your WHITE ADOPTED idea, conception of "personal responsibility" look like the DEFERENCE SHAM that it is.

Why in the WORLD, when your people have a tradition of self-help and self-reliance philosophies would you borrow the conceptions of WHITE PEOPLE? Using the exact language and arguments made by WHITE PEOPLE... White CON---CONservatives.

Reconcile that SCOTT!!

 
At 12:06 PM, Blogger Scott said...

(i.e. you won't find and haven't pointed out where anyone has preached Absolution...)

Everytime you guys say you can NOT judge someone actions you are absolving them of personal responsibility.

 
At 12:51 PM, Blogger Scott said...

Noah Said "Consequently, white racism oppresses and causes the socioeconomic dislocation and differential…..not black irresponsibility."

But NOAH 75% of blacks are middle class or better, showing that personal responsibility in today's society CAN trump racism.

 
At 12:54 PM, Blogger Scott said...

"NmagiNATE you play at being hard, but tell me one thing you have done to force the system to change. Or one thing you have done the HELP other black people.

Just one of each and I will shut the fuck up. "

 
At 1:15 PM, Blogger Noah TA said...

Scott said:"But NOAH 75% of blacks are middle class or better, showing that personal responsibility in today's society CAN trump racism."



Yes, but white wealth is over 10 times that of blacks and the black poverty rate is nearly 3 times that of whites, as well as the rate of unemployment. Moreover, personal responsibility, as measured by factors such as marriage rates and children born out of wedlock, were greater in the past than the present. However, the poverty rates of the past were higher than rates of poverty today, despite greater personal responsibility and the practice of old traditional values. Thus, that tells me logically that the 75% of blacks who are not in poverty is not a statistic correlated with responsibility or the lack there of, but rather, forced changes in society in regards to hiring, education, affirmative action and so forth, which created more opportunities. The fact that so many racial gaps still exists means that such efforts must continue and new ones added to offset the power of white racism to subdue the black socioeconomic condition relative to whites.

 
At 2:14 PM, Blogger Scott said...

But you haven't looked at the data properly. Who are those 75% not in poverty. They are the ones who finished school, aren't single parent families, didn't comit crimes etc.

To ignore personal responsibility which is what you are advocating with in the past there was more personal responibility and poverty. You did get one point right, there is LESS racism today and that is why in todays society it is easier to get ahead than in the past.

I have not doubt that current social programs are ineffective in helping the core poor move to working class.
Mainly because current program assume that the people using them are responsible adults who have the disipline to work, save and study to get ahead.

 
At 2:24 PM, Blogger Noah TA said...

Well, if you want to measure the effects of racism, you have to juxtapose equally positioned blacks and whites. Blacks who are educated and married still do worse than whites who are educated and married in this society. You are incorrect to use poverty as a measure of racism. You need to juxtapose equally positioned blacks and white to measure the effects of racism. It may be true that blacks who are not poor have done enough things right to be better off than they are, if not for racism.

 
At 2:58 PM, Blogger Noah TA said...

I should have stated above that POVERTY IS NOT THE SOLE MANIFESTATION OR EFFECT OF RACISM. I should not have said that it is incorrect to use poverty as a measure of racism...for it most certainly is in regards to the black experience.

 
At 4:10 PM, Blogger NmagiNATE said...

Everytime you guys say you can NOT judge someone actions you are absolving them of personal responsibility.

SCOTT, like I tell silly White people on msg. boards saying equally silly sh*t like you...

QUOTE ME or STROKE ME!!

Simply, find an ACTUAL statement I said... I said... I said that amounts to what you are trying to assert about my position.

SCOTT, your very "What Have You Done?" is nothing but a DON'T JUDGE ME statement. A statement it seems (given your axiom) that you are hoping certain acts ABSOLVE YOU of not having to be logically sound.

"...75% of blacks are middle class or better, showing that personal responsibility in today's society CAN trump racism."


SCOTT!! FAHEEM has told you about this BS! The CONTRADICTION inherent within this BS you use conveniently thinking you're making a point.

The WEALTH GAP, Shaker Heights, etc. shoots all kinds of holes in this BS!! Oh and the Glass Ceiling TOO!!

But, I guess this further shows How You're Willing To Let That Shit Go.... ON THE HOUSE!!

As my guy says... with such racism being The Natural Pecking Order.

Again, NO Challenges or Demands From You. NONE directed towards "The System"... And you have the nerve to open your mouth in protest for being called (properly) a NEGRO CON!!!

 
At 9:15 PM, Blogger Scott said...

Show me where I protested being called a negro-con since you are so into exact quotes and I KNOW I never said that or implied that.

 
At 9:19 PM, Blogger Scott said...

I understand the wealth gap very well, in fact its at the core of my reparations strategy. As opposed to yours "oh wait" what is your strategy. You don't have one now do you.

So you talk shit about chaining the system and you don't even know how you want it to change.

Talk big, hide behind a alais. NmagiNATE you are full of shit.

Noah has said at least one thing worth repeating.

 
At 6:37 AM, Blogger Noah TA said...

Scott, also do not forget the fallacy of your reasoning. If your plan was formulated with the fallacious reasoning demonstrated...its likely faulty. Just because 75% of black people are not impovershed does not mean that their progress has not been stunted by racism. It could be that median black household income of 32,000 dollars would actually be about 45,000 if not for the effect of past and present racism. You somehow stuck on the poverty rate, while ignoring how racism retards income in all brackets.

 
At 9:03 AM, Blogger Scott said...

Noah of course racism effects our earnings. But racism doesn't keep us dirt poor trapped in poverty and ignorance.

 
At 10:05 AM, Blogger Noah TA said...

Scott, how do you define “US” in the phrase, “it does not keep us dirt poor?” If our earnings are affected by racism, which you agree with, then some black people are dirt poor because of racism, as logical corollary. Besides, I think the goal goes far beyond striving to simply avoid being dirt poor. Why do you place the bas so low? Why is not your goal equality and parity?

If you ignore racism because the majority of blacks are not made dirt poor by it, you also ignore and give consent via silence to black inequality born from racism. In other words, you are ok with racism and inequality as long as it does not result in blacks being “dirt poor”. That’s Sad bro…really sad.

 
At 10:46 AM, Blogger Scott said...

I don't want equality I want superiority.

And you aren't going to get it asking for a hand out.

You pretend that you are demanding shit from whitey. But all you are really doing is beggin for scraps.

If you wanted equality you would do what Jews, Asians and West Indians. You would get up off you ass join together build business and make some money. Instead under the guize of being Powerful you demand (beg) for a fucking handout.

Do you not understand you are comdemming our bothers to needless poverty and uselessness.

 
At 11:50 AM, Blogger Noah TA said...

Well if you want superiority, then you are no better than a white supremacist. How can you promote superiority between races without promoting the concept that one race is superior to another? I don’t believe that one race is genetically predisposed to be superior over another in the relevant capacities to produce economic success. Hence, the only thing that will create the condition of superiority is environmental impediments placed against a race of people.

I also don’t understand the juxtaposition of you being pro-reparations, as I, yet condemn me for looking to YT for a handout. Don’t you know YT looks at reparations as a handout? However, I am sure you have your own self serving working definition of “hand out” that you can selectively and subject pull out to obfuscate a debate in which your argument is untenable.

All I have done is to describe the history of cause and effect in regards to race in America. I have proposed no plan….yet; you accuse me of crying for a handout? I forwarded no plan asking for anything, I have consistently promoted black unity, I have never stated that I am against working together and making Money, like some African Americans, some Jews, Some Asians and Some West Indians are doing, but certainly not all. So where do you come up with such nonsense, as if noting cause and effect is mutually exclusive to proactively creating something positive for black of black people? I started with a commitment to the black women….what about you? I didn’t think So. You talk about all this working together….and can’t even form a relationship with a sister. Ergo, you talking South while walking North.

 
At 2:27 PM, Blogger Scott said...

" How can you promote superiority between races without promoting the concept that one race is superior to another?"

The easiest way to be superior is to work harder. Why do you think the Asians are the model minority. They work harder. Duh ..

"hence, the only thing that will create the condition of superiority is environmental impediments placed against a race of people." -- You have a really fucked up world view. If that is the only way yuo can see someone getting ahead.

 
At 3:17 PM, Blogger Noah TA said...

It don’t work that way bro. Well, from what white folks say THEY are working hard. If everyone is working as hard as they can, then the only way to come out on top is to be superior in capacity. Now, if white folk have all that money and status and they are not working as hard, how in the hell did they get that status? Contrary to what you might think, there is not automatic reward for everyone who works hard. There is only so much good opportunity and everyone cannot posses those opportunities at once.

You might see it as a mucked up world view, but what really mucked up is that empirical evidence suggest that it’s true. Ergo, what is mucked up is the world historical reality…. And not a distorted perception there of.

 
At 12:06 PM, Blogger Scott said...

There is no automatic reward for working hard. But you are punished for not working hard.

Unfortunetly to many people are happy with their government handouts and the few bucks they make on the side to actually take care of themselves and their families.

 
At 1:44 PM, Blogger Noah TA said...

THere are a lot of rich kids who are not punished for not working hard. You don't have to work hard when you have CONNECTIONS and rich folks.

 

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